Luke Tipple is joined by shark conservationist and star of Discovery’s Shark Week Special Sharks in Paradise, Kinga Philipps, to discuss massive tiger sharks in French Polynesia.
On this episode of Shark Week: The Podcast, Luke Tipple is joined by explorer, shark conservationist and star of Discovery’s Shark Week Special Sharks in Paradise, Kinga Philipps! They discuss her expedition to French Polynesia to find the massive tiger sharks which have been flourishing in the area. Plus, Kinga explains how marine protected areas and local laws are truly allowing the waters around French Polynesia to truly be considered a “shark paradise”.
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[00:00:00] Luke: On today's podcast, I'll tell you why it's not a good idea to mess around with sharks and we'll be joined by explorer, shark conservationist and star of Discovery’s Shark Week special Sharks in Paradise Kinga Philipps. She's here to discuss the remarkable marine life in French Polynesia. All that and more is coming up on this episode of Shark Week: The Podcast.
[00:00:24] Luke: I'm Luke Tipple, marine biologist and a frequent voice on my favorite things, oceans and sharks. And I'm stoked to bring the magic of Shark Week, right to your ears. You know, sharks have been a big part of my life for over 20 years. They're a critical part of the ocean and a conduit to better understanding life on our planet. So, whether you've never seen Shark Week before or you've been a die hard fan over the 30-plus years it's been around, this podcast is for you.
[00:00:56] Luke: We start today's pod with Shark Speak. And, as usual, we start with a fascinating and quite honestly bizarre headline because we have shark rider recovering after attack off Western Australian island. This is from nine news on the 29th of July, 2021. And look, anybody who calls himself a shark rider is probably gonna have a story written like this, about him one day.
[00:01:18] Luke: And he's gonna regret the stories he relished on previous days. You know, those ones that get you credit when you think that you're that big, tough guy who jumps on the back of sharks and can ride them around and stuff. And then there's that report that has you doing this where Aaron wa was molded by a shark after he attempted to jump on his back?
[00:01:37] Luke: Apparently now this is a fishing captain. He's an Australian. Made a name for himself by jumping on the back of sharks. And he called himself a shark rider and there's, um, a pretty iconic piece of footage that he put out in 2014 where he enticed a, a great big hammerhead shark. I think it was a scalp hammerhead shark that came up to his boat and then he jumped on the back of the thing and the hammerhead took off.
[00:02:00] Luke: Predictably. And, uh, he became the shark rider and was probably YouTube famous for a few moments. Now I have to interject here and say, none of this is good behavior. I might be joking around a little bit, but these sharks have not great tolerances to stress. So when you get a shark, that's being attacked, particularly a hammerhead like that, and they think they're being attacked.
[00:02:21] Luke: You know, it's not a great thing for the animal and it's certainly not any kind of, you know, scientific study or anything that we can justify for any type of extreme. You know, nature whatsoever, except just apparently for, you know, social points, I guess. But apparently he's been doing this since and, you know, making a bit of a name for himself and we don't quite know what happened on this trip, but he was on a charter fishing trip on Varanus island, which is about 120 kilometers west of Caratha, which is on Western Australia's palabra coast.
[00:02:50] Luke: Which if that means nothing to you, it's basically in the middle of nowhere, in Western Australia. Beautiful perfection. I'm sure. Uh, There was an incident. He was apparently attacked. We can only imagine why cuz details haven't come out yet, but apparently it was a lemon shark. And I can say from, uh, a lot of experience with lemon sharks, that it would take a lot to get them that psyched up that they'd wanna bite you.
[00:03:15] Luke: But he ended up with three bite marks on his back leg and stomach. It took a 15 hour boat ride, then a plane ride and several other ways that could probably cost the taxpayers a lot of. To get him into a hospital. Now, the good news part of this story is we haven't heard anything else about this attack since, I mean, this happened almost a year ago, so we presume that he's recovered from his injuries.
[00:03:35] Luke: I hope he's got some good scars and a good story to tell, and perhaps he's learned his lesson and we won't be hearing anymore from Mr. Shark rider. Now, moving on to our next story, which is almost the polar opposite, you know, we've gone from somebody who decided that he wanted to do something. Dumb with a big predator to somebody who didn't know what he was getting into.
[00:03:56] Luke: This is the headline, like a scene out of jaws, British boy, attacked by sharks in Bahamas this from the guardian on the 8th of August, 2022, this just happened. And this story was one that honestly, it kind of broke my heart. I. When you read it, this is an eight year old British boy. He's on vacation with his dad and his sisters.
[00:04:16] Luke: And he got bitten by nurse sharks. Now nurse shark swimming is something that's been done for years and years and years and years out in Bahamas. This is particularly in the EXOS and. In some places, the nurse sharks are kept captive. Often they've been bred in captivity and they're very accustomed to people swimming with them.
[00:04:36] Luke: Now, if you don't know nurse sharks, they're a fairly docile breed of shark. They don't have prominent teeth. They have what we call grinding plates and they typically suck up crustaceans and other. You know, fish parts and things like that. They crush them with their jaws rather than biting and chewing them.
[00:04:54] Luke: And they consequently have a very strong jaw, but they're certainly not man eaters, even though I hate that word, but we certainly need to put it out there. They're not going after humans by any means, except by accidental association. Now the ways that you can get bitten by a nurse shark are perhaps by bumping into them in the water.
[00:05:14] Luke: If you are fishing and there's bait in the water, especially if there's turbidity, that's water, that's been stirred up or water that you can't clearly see through because that's the environment where if a shark is hunting in those same waters, they might mistake you for their prey. It's certainly not a comfortable thing.
[00:05:31] Luke: And they're strong jaws. I mean, they might be docile, but those jaws can do some damage. And poor Finley downer was on the biting end of that particular incident. The story is a little confusing because Finley and his family were out with a, a notable and good tour operator. They were doing their thing, but then.
[00:05:50] Luke: They apparently separated from the group and they were bitten in a different lagoon. They were attacked in a different lagoon and perhaps not with the same sharks that they were educated about. And I had to do a bit of digging, but I found some news from The Bahamas. And this seems like a bit of a cascade of, you know, good intentions that just kind of went bad.
[00:06:08] Luke: So there tour boat broke down. The tour operator said to one of his buddies who was also a tour operator to take them on his boat to go get a bite, to eat. They went to a different key in the exomes. And at that same key, there was also nurse sharks. So the kids having heard the briefing on swimming with nurse sharks, which they, which they'd already done that day, they'd been told that the sharks were not dangerous, which in that place, in that location under controlled scenario, May have been a reasonable assumption.
[00:06:39] Luke: I'm not gonna say those sharks aren't dangerous. They certainly are, but it may have been a reasonable assumption. However, they took that same knowledge, took it to a different location with different sharks, although it's the same species and they were walking around in the water with these nurse sharks whereby some apparently well, meaning locals were throwing some scraps of fish and lobster into the water to enable the sharks to come closer to the kids.
[00:07:02] Luke: So the kids could see them better. Now you can see where this is about to go wrong. you know, food in the water. Sharks searching for food. These are typically scavenger type sharks. They see food in the water, they stir it all up a little bit. And poor Finley was in the middle of that. He took three bites and had to go to the hospital.
[00:07:20] Luke: Um, the, the reports are pretty bad. Uh, he might need skin grafts. He's certainly gonna survive. He's certainly gonna walk, but you know, the poor LA, he, he was doing nothing wrong as far as what he'd been educated about. And I'm gonna throw this out there. If you are listening to this out in the world, there Finley, we'd love to have a chat to your mate.
[00:07:39] Luke: I'd love to take you diving with sharks. We'd love to get you in the water with some sharks and, you know, have that good feeling about these animals. Again, uh, you know, it, wasn't your fault. You were certainly in kind of the wrong place at the wrong time with some bad information, but none of that's your fault and you certainly weren't helped by having bait in the water, but perhaps it's the lesson for everybody around the water with sharks, especially in shallow water.
[00:08:04] Luke: When there's food floating about, they won't make a distinction between a piece of food that's right next to you. And you, because very often before a shark attacks or a shark bites, I should say, they're gonna close their eyes or they'll roll their tating membranes up because they want to protect their eyes.
[00:08:20] Luke: So they're, they're honing in that, that last little bit, and then they close their eyes and they're biting whatever's there. And you certainly don't wanna be in the way.
[00:08:39] Luke: On this episode, I'm stoked to welcome a very special guest. She's an Explorer, a shark, conservationist, and star of discovery, shark week, special sharks in paradise. Welcome Kinga Philipps. Thank you so much for having me well, thanks for being here. Hey, um, why don't you, uh, introduce yourself and tell us about your background in sharks and why you love 'em so much.
[00:08:58] Kinga: Well, my name is Kinga Philipps. I have worked as kind of a hybrid in conservation and television hosting for about 22 years now. So I love sharks. I love talking about sharks. I love bringing sharks to people in a way that kind of counters a lot of the media that's out there. We'll
[00:09:16] Luke: definitely get into that.
[00:09:17] Luke: Cause I know that's just what you did, but I wanna know where, you know, this reporter, television host and kind of all over the place. What got your passion started for sharks? You know, it's
[00:09:26] Kinga: interesting because I feel like I kind of fell into it the way a lot of shark conservationists and even some scientists did, which when I was a kid.
[00:09:34] Kinga: I snuck over to my friend's house and watched the movie jaws, unbeknownst to my parents. It was completely horrified. And after being this little water, baby, I decided I would never go in the water again. Cuz clearly it was just so terrifying. And then because I had this little spinning journalist brain, even as a kid, I was like, wait a minute.
[00:09:51] Kinga: What, why am I so afraid of these animals? And so I decided to research them and then when I was old enough, actually go diving with them. And the first time I ever got in the water with one in a cage. And it didn't immediately try to break, open the cage. Andry me out of it. And devour me as I had basically been told by the media they're supposed to do, I then became fascinated by this and thought, wow, I've really been misinformed.
[00:10:16] Kinga: And it kind of seems like a lot of people have been, and that pushed me even further into. Wanting to learn more about them and then kind of get the story straight when you are in the water, swimming next to a tiger shark. And then that's shared on television. And the comments that I get from people are this, this sliding scale of wow, you're insane to, oh my gosh.
[00:10:39] Kinga: Like, how do you feel? Okay. Being next to a shark like this. And I think one of my favorite comments was last year, we were doing targeter queen and Dr. Austin Gallagher called sharks, the most patient predators. And I. Holy crap. That's the best explanation ever, because the reality is you're probably not gonna go to the Savannah in Africa and, and run next to a lion.
[00:10:59] Kinga: You're probably not gonna go out and, you know, walk next to a grizzly bear. But somehow these incredible apex predators, obviously with caution and with, with respect and, you know, with, with all of us in the water, having an immense amount of expertise with their behavior and, and the environment and understanding them, they allow.
[00:11:18] Kinga: Into their space and kind of proximity that you wouldn't expect to get to be, be in with an apex predator and, you know, end up getting back on the boat. So for people to get to witness that and to see that a lot of times what the media shares about these sharks and what we get to present is vastly different.
[00:11:37] Kinga: That makes me really
[00:11:38] Luke: happy. So we saw you last year on tiger queen. And this year on sharks in paradise, what is it with you and all the good shoot locations?
[00:11:46] Kinga: You know, somehow I got lucky enough to really form a relationship with tiger sharks. And as we know, tiger sharks tend to gravitate towards those warmer waters, turquoise waters, really beautiful waters.
[00:12:00] Kinga: And. Living in California. I don't, even though I dive out there a lot, I don't love cold water. So I'm like, oh, this is great. I'm gonna follow the warm water, loving sharks around.
[00:12:10] Luke: So pro tip for anybody looking to get into, uh, shark media later on, if you like living in tropical, paradises do what Kinga did get into tiger sharks or tropical reef species.
[00:12:20] Luke: Yeah. Uh, so tell us about sharks in paradise. What was the mission? So
[00:12:24] Kinga: sharks and paradise was a lot of fun because I actually made it out to French Polynesia during the pandemic in 2020 before they got shut down. And I heard, heard about this little island called Tiki, how, and this guy named Dennis Gross Meer and his tiger sharks.
[00:12:39] Kinga: And it just kind of blew my mind because the photos that I was seeing, coming out of there were pretty incredible. And these were. Big sharks, not fat, big, big bone, we'll say big cartilage. And, uh, he was free diving with these amazing sharks and it didn't feel like a commercial endeavor. So I thought I gotta find this guy.
[00:12:56] Kinga: I gotta get out there. And I did met Dennis. He was someone who was instrumental in actually helping to create the French Polynesian and cook island shark sanctuary, which is one of the largest, if not the largest in the world right now. And he had found this population of resident tiger, shark females, and a.
[00:13:14] Kinga: I got to spend. I went out there with a dear friend of mine and we are in the water for six hours, with three tigers for an hour. I think I was in there by myself and it was pretty incredible. And I started talking to the fine folks at shark week about it, and with the help of Tahiti tourism who was instrumental and like opening so many doors for us, we got to get out there and actually do this documentary.
[00:13:36] Kinga: And the whole idea behind it was. Why is French Polynesia, the shark paradise, whereas you well know. And so many people know that sharks are decreasing in numbers and they're having such a rough time right now here in French Polynesia. They're thriving, they're they're numbers, the, their size, they're just everywhere.
[00:13:55] Kinga: And it's incredible. So we went to see why that is.
[00:13:58] Luke: Now, uh, one of the overarching themes of that documentary and I, I watched it was really good and the, the footage is astounding. It's just, it's one of those shows that you watch as a diver and you're just jealous the whole time. You're like, oh, that looks so good.
[00:14:12] Luke: the coral's healthy. The fish air healthy. The water is blue. The sharks. Big and they're totally chill. Like it, it just looked like one of those dream shoots, but the locations that you're in, you said you heard about this place where there's tiger sharks and you know, there's this guy with quote unquote, his sharks.
[00:14:30] Luke: Was that kind of an anomaly of the area or is it just one particular spot? Is it near a tourist resort? Is it far flung? Like where is it? Cause there's a lot of islands out.
[00:14:39] Kinga: Oh, great question. So French Polynesia is 118 islands and Tiki. How is one of the two IMAS? And those are these absolutely stunning picture.
[00:14:49] Kinga: Perfect at tolls. Like you could drop a camera and get a great shot of a shark and natural beauty. I mean, honestly it it's everywhere and what's crazy is it's not. An anomaly. So Dennis, when I say his sharks, you know, we know sharks, aren't pets, these are wild animals, but what's amazing about it is that they are truly everywhere.
[00:15:09] Kinga: You've got tiger sharks. You've got lemon sharks, you've got oceanic white tips. You've got silver tips. You've got black tips. You've got nurse sharks, I think out of, you know, the 350 plus species of sharks worldwide, 19 species are commonly seen in French Polynesia. And you don't really have to try very hard to see.
[00:15:26] Kinga: Like it's, they really are there. And you kind of nailed it when you said the reef systems are so healthy, the biomass is so healthy. So there's an abundance of food. The water is clear. So even though spear fishing and, and diving is commonplace there, you don't have a lot of shark incidents, you know, because they have everything they need there.
[00:15:45] Kinga: And then you do have these incredible populations. We got to the point when we were filming sharks in paradise. We filmed our segment with the tiger sharks. And then we went to another island that we call secret shark island. It's one of the two Ammas and we just don't name it because we just, we just don't want like them to become too popular.
[00:16:01] Kinga: But the tiger sharks were following the fishermen to the point that we were like another tiger shark. Do we get in and film it? Now we got too many tiger sharks. You know, you're in a cool place when you're like, get outta the way tiger shark. We wanna fill something.
[00:16:13] Luke: Now, if you're not quite familiar with where French Polynesia is, we're talking about the south Pacific, we're talking about one of my favorite places in the world.
[00:16:21] Luke: Can you tell us how the, uh, the Marine protected areas has come about in that area? You know, put the cart before the horse or the other way around, you know, was it, was it. Beautiful and perfect. So they decided to protect it or were they losing its perfection and then decided to, you know, preserve it and get it back to health.
[00:16:37] Kinga: So again, great question. And one of the things about French Polynesia that I wanted to get out there with sharks and paradise is that. This is something that is a bit of an anomaly and it, because the pop there's so many islands and a lot of them are not densely populated. A lot of these, the tolls are unpopulated and some of them will have like 200 people, 400 people.
[00:16:59] Kinga: So one thing is there's a very small human footprint, so you don't have an overfishing issue. They also don't allow commercial fishing, which. Huge because as we know, commercial fishing is, you know, one of the detrimental acts or oceans and you get just so much bycatch sharks are caught either in, in, you know, as, as bycatch or because they're intended to be caught for FN, for squalene, for their meat, for cartilage, for all that stuff.
[00:17:24] Kinga: So. that is not an issue in French Polynesia. So you have healthy reefs. You have protected biomass too, because there is not commercial fishing. So they have tons of food and then you have the sharks that are protected and we know that sharks migrate. So that's super important. That's actually something we wanna do next to study those sharks and see where they go.
[00:17:42] Kinga: But a lot of these sharks. Hang there permanently. So like the population of tiger sharks in Tiki, how they are resident females and they are there year round. So if they are migrating, they might be migrating to some of the other atolls or the big island at Tahiti. Are they going as far as Australia or New Zealand?
[00:17:59] Kinga: We're not sure. But to, to go back to your question, one of the things that also makes French Polynesia so special is because the people there have an immense respect for sharks. They consider them their guardians. They're not fearful of them. These are, these are ocean going, people they've grown up around sharks.
[00:18:15] Kinga: So. We saw kids get in the water with tiger sharks and be totally chill about it. And that's pretty amazing. So when you have people who respect sharks, instead of fear them, that you've, you've already established a foundation. And then next, if you don't have a commercial need, because France does such a great job of subsidizing things for these people, there's not, when you go to French Polynesia, you don't have a sense of extreme poverty in any.
[00:18:42] Kinga: And that is important to note because there isn't a need base there where these people are like, oh, okay, we're gonna send these sharks and sell 'em off there. There's not that. So you have respect, you don't have an economic need. And then because you have this massive protected area and the corals protected, the biomass was protected and the sharks are protected and you don't have commercial fishing.
[00:19:01] Kinga: It's like the perfect storm of what a, an ocean, an untouched ocean should be.
[00:19:07] Luke: So we can assume that with the, the absence of commercial fishing, the local subsistence fisheries can still exist, right? Yeah. So there's still traditional fishing. They can still go catch fish. They can spear fish, they can do whatever, but they have respect to keep things within tolerable limits and sustainable limits.
[00:19:22] Kinga: And when you have islands where there's 200 people and their subsistence fishing, That's incredibly different than if you have, you know, a massive nations trying to feed its people. So it's, there's a small human footprint
[00:19:33] Luke: there. Yeah. As we've seen in places that aren't so fortunate to have that backing that financial backing, we've got these sort of two degrees of commercial fisheries that happens.
[00:19:43] Luke: We've got the, you know, the commercial fisheries where they. You know, pay the locals to go and, you know, catch shark for example, and find them and send that fins back. Or we get the ones who come in with foreign vessels and they'll essentially rent or lease a fishing permit to go and exploit the local waters.
[00:20:01] Luke: And those are the really dangerous ones, cuz they'll just come in and there's really no watchdogs out there. And they just, they tear everything apart. Like we went up to, uh, Marshall Islands, we did a bunch of tagging there and we saw that we were trying to prove. The sharks, the reef sharks were moving between the adults and that hadn't been shown with tagging data or anything in that area before we managed to show that.
[00:20:23] Luke: And then two to three weeks later, we saw them all doing a B-line to Indonesia. And we figured, okay, well, that's, we're pretty certain that reef sharks, aren't migrating in a straight line to Indonesia and yeah. Uh, commercial fleet had gone through and just torn them all out. It was absolutely heartbreaking, but.
[00:20:39] Luke: In a weird way, that data helped us a lot. So, um, that kind of in a roundabout way brings me to asking about the resident target sharks there, has that been substantiated or is it kind of like just local saying yeah, we see them all the.
[00:20:51] Kinga: It's the latter. So we were not able to get permits to tag them, but we're hoping actually to go back and do that, because that, like the story you just told is exactly kind of what we're looking for.
[00:21:02] Kinga: We're hoping that doesn't happen. But we, we, what, you know, the point that you were making is that the migratory routes of these sharks are as important as the protected areas, because we know that sharks, aren't like, wait a minute, hold on. Let me look at my map. I can't go past this area right here. Cuz here I'm protected.
[00:21:16] Kinga: So we wanna make sure that these sharks are not venturing. Side of this protected area to where they do pick him full vulnerable to commercial fishing. So what Dennis and he's been there for many years and the local other fishermen there have said is that they see these resident females year round.
[00:21:33] Kinga: All the time, maybe it'll disappear for a couple weeks, but then they come back. So if they are migrating, it kind of seems, we know, we know that that tiger sharks are, are wanders. They travel really far. The other interesting thing is they've never seen a male there. Now we know the males are coming in because even in the show, There, there was a pregnant female there.
[00:21:52] Kinga: They've never seen one. So that's super interesting. Where are they coming in from? Where are they going to, where are they meeting? Where is like the, you know, the tiger shark, romantic party happening? We don't know. So that always like, just, that just tickles me, like having all these questions that I would like the answers to, because we know that having those answers is only gonna help these animals.
[00:22:11] Kinga: But yes, as far as we know, they just hang out there. Why wouldn.
[00:22:15] Luke: Sure. So let's be clear about that. Uh, the locals hadn't seen a male before, or they hadn't seen a pregnant female before
[00:22:22] Kinga: they had not seen a male before Dennis has never seen a male there. Yeah. So we did see a pregnant female there and in the show Tupa and then Dennis has seen other pregnant females as well, but never seen a
[00:22:34] Luke: male.
[00:22:35] Luke: I wonder. Has he seen any pups or smaller tiger sharks in the
[00:22:38] Kinga: area? That's the other thing and it, oh my gosh. Like this, I wanna go back and I wanna study all of this because when you think about it, another reason why we believe those females hang out there is because there's abundant food for them.
[00:22:50] Kinga: There's the gray reef shark. There's tons of fish. There're Manter rays there. And then the atolls are perfect P grounds because they're shallow water, they're safe, but they have never seen a tiger shark. Where are they?
[00:23:03] Luke: Well, they've got about 200 islands or so to hide out in don't they, I mean, they surely they have to be somewhere.
[00:23:09] Luke: I mean, you gotta imagine as a GRA female, who's cruising around those waters and seeing, you know, perfect food sources and real nice place to be. Why not pop in that same area, but it's curious that such a, a large seafaring nation hasn't seen the juveniles before.
[00:23:25] Kinga: And, you know, I am determined to visit all 118 islands until I find those pops.
[00:23:30] Kinga: I will, I will happily do that research.
[00:23:33] Luke: I was curious, isn't it? How you go to these cultures where they have a deep relationship with the ocean and sharks are really not a big deal. In fact, they might be in a revered and exalted in certain ways. And you contrast that to, you know, societies like the United States or, or other larger countries where you don't have that sort of association and.
[00:23:54] Luke: You know that relationship with the ocean and sharks are what the media tell us they are. And I think that's why it's important that people like yourselves are out there telling the true stories about sharks. With your experience over there, perhaps tell us about what the local Tahitians think about sharks and how it integrates in their culture.
[00:24:11] Kinga: Well, that's part of the foundation of what I think sharks thrive in French Polynesia is that culturally they are revered. They are looked at as guardians of the ocean as guardians of the people. They are, there's a symbology with the sharks that people look to them to indicate where the fish stock is.
[00:24:31] Kinga: They look to them to, to basically they see them as protectors. And that's a really beautiful thing because when you give an animal that much weight and that much respect they're. It creates an environment for their protection, just organically, even outside of the, the legal ramifications of harvesting sharks.
[00:24:51] Kinga: These people don't want to harm them because they have so much respect for them. So the innate culture of the Tahitians is of such respect towards the ocean. They live and die by the rhythm of the ocean. You know, uh, Dennis was telling me, goes a lot of the kids there. They can free dive as soon as they can.
[00:25:10] Kinga: You know, for a lot of these, these tolls that people who live on these tolls fishing and being out on the water, spear fishing, you know, fishing out of a boat like that is just a daily lifestyle for them. They understand the ocean so incredibly well in the rhythms of it. So what's, there is not to be feared, but to be revered,
[00:25:30] Luke: Are the sharks anecdotally from the locals, there are the sharks, perhaps getting bigger in the history of this Marine protected area.
[00:25:37] Kinga: I, I would imagine it would logically and scientifically make sense that they would grow bigger there because of how healthy the environment is and because of their protected status. So we heard stories from fishermen and that was part of the story in sharks and paradise. And, you know, we would. In most areas you go to and you hear like, oh, the fisherman's tails and we've got sharks this big, and then you go out there and you're like this thing, and that's a little shark.
[00:26:02] Kinga: And in French Polynesia, the fisherman's tails are actually true when they tell you, there are a lot of sharks. There are a lot of sharks when we went to our secret shark island and they told us about the silver tips and the oceanic white tips. And we went, wow, those are pretty rare species. Really guys, we got out there and they surrounded our boat.
[00:26:19] Kinga: It, it it's incredible. Like it's true. But they also told us stories about, there was one story that the guys told us that there was an eight meter tiger shark out there. And we went, wow, well, these are fishermen. And these guys were right about everything else. And they were really, really well versed in these animals.
[00:26:38] Kinga: And. We never got to see that shark, but I will diligently go back once again. I will find that shark on discovery's budget, but yes, they, they, the tiger sharks, there are very large because they are allowed to grow. In a healthy environment to the size that they're supposed to be. So yes, there are big sharks in French Polynesia.
[00:27:00] Luke: Uh, it, it might just be a, a bit of a guess and you know, certainly conjecture, but, um, do you think there might be a link between there being the larger sharks, particularly female sharks and perhaps. Absence of typically smaller male sharks.
[00:27:14] Kinga: Definitely. You know, and this isn't unique just to French Polynesia.
[00:27:18] Kinga: We saw the same thing in Turks and CAOs when we were there the year before, and there were male sharks and we did see them, but they tend to stay away from the females, even because as we know with most shark species of females are much bigger and they, you know, they don't wanna be bothered by the males and even in Guadalupe.
[00:27:36] Kinga: And as I'm sure you've been out there, you. The males come at the start of the season, somewhere around like August and then towards fall, the end of fall, they call it the time at the Titans. And that's when the huge females show up. And the two species really like, or the, not the two species, but the two sexes really don't intermingle that much until it's time to boom chick a bow.
[00:27:56] Kinga: Wow. So it, it's not uncommon to have. The males not be present. And if they are, they're usually further away, we heard the same thing about, uh, tiger zoo and the Maldives, the male tigers are there, but they just stay further away. Cause it's mostly the females and they're dominant and they get all the food and the males are like, oh, you're big.
[00:28:13] Kinga: I'm gonna stay away. Yeah.
[00:28:14] Luke: And even when they are sort of mixing, I mean, you mentioned Guadalupe. I spent. What five years down there working throughout this season, seeing that range of sharks come through and you start off the season with these typically smaller males. And often they're kind of young and dumb and, you know, full of fun and, uh and you know, they're going crazy.
[00:28:32] Luke: They go all over the Bates and they're kind of erratic. And then when those larger females turn up, it feels like there's. Bit of civility that comes around the water mm-hmm and you know, it's like, oh, the matriarchs are here and they push away the little fellas and, and you will see them in the water together, but there's definitely a dominance, which is why I asked it cuz cuz the female, you get one big female around and those little males will just scatter away.
[00:28:54] Luke: And perhaps she's putting out a siren song at some point that says, okay, now you can come in. Let's do what we're biologically inclined to do, but it's not super common to see them hanging out. So we see that diversification. You know, where are the tiger sharks going to then go and do that? So that's kind of cool.
[00:29:11] Luke: We gotta figure that
[00:29:12] Kinga: out. Yeah. And I, I kind of love as much as I want the answers to all this, because I think it's incredibly valuable for science. And clearly I, I wanna go back to Tahiti. I also kind of love that there are still so many mysteries about sharks. I, that we don't know that we don't have the answers.
[00:29:26] Kinga: I, I kind of love.
[00:29:28] Luke: Yeah. Now your work with sharks is I think, am I correct in saying that you were the first female host for, uh, your own show last year for tiger queen? Was that right? Yes.
[00:29:37] Kinga: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, discovery has had amazing female shark scientist. Absolutely. As part of teams and they have had incredible celebrities on, but that's what, what I was.
[00:29:46] Kinga: Told is that there had never been a female host of her own show until last year at tiger queen. Yeah.
[00:29:51] Luke: Yeah. I think that's right. And I I've worked with many female scientists and hosts who've, you know, come out and done amazing work, but I think it's really cool to like, obviously have someone of your experience who deserves their own show.
[00:30:02] Luke: Who's well spoken and knows a lot about sharks and your passion comes across. How important do you think is it to have females in those roles? I mean, it goes without saying for me, but I think as our listen. It's good to have a home
[00:30:13] Kinga: it's hugely important. And when I get asked about that, I always wanna point out that in the background, there are so many amazing female conservationists.
[00:30:23] Kinga: I mean, the organization that I work with shark allies is almost all women. And there are so many just badass female shark scientists and conserv ionist and, and divers and ecologists. And it it's they're the world is exploding with them. And so when people say, oh, You know, there must be more now because I saw you on TV.
[00:30:43] Kinga: I'm like, no, no, no. They, they weren't always recognized publicly in the media, but they've always been there and they've always been doing a great
[00:30:50] Luke: job. Yeah. Well, what set you on the kind of scientific path? I know you, you told us about your passion for sharks, but what got you into this, you know, rep charge slash science role.
[00:30:59] Luke: Well
[00:31:00] Kinga: again, you know, I, I have that, that spinny journalist brain and I've worked in television for 22 years and been so fortunate to really always work with the national geographics and the travel channels and the discoveries and the history channels and the BBCs. And that was, that was my goal. I never wanted to do red carpet.
[00:31:15] Kinga: I wanted to do nature and outdoor venture. And because sharks were a passion of mine. And then I got involved with shark allies about 10, 12 years ago with Stephanie BR, who is a powerhouse in, in the shark conservation world, and really realized that, that there was a need for more women who have that platform to be outspoken about it.
[00:31:37] Kinga: And just, even in the shows that I was doing when I worked with national geographic or with travel channel and we would do something underwater and there were sharks, I would, I would get to bring my, my background and my, you know, view of sharks across rather than being afraid. And even then sometimes I would get annoyed because they would say to me, why don't you get in the water and act really scared?
[00:31:58] Kinga: And I was like, no, no, I, I actually won't do that. I'm gonna do the direct opposite of that, cuz that's not what I wanna present to people. It kind of started incrementally where I would have segments and shows that I was working on where we were diving. There would be sharks around and that people were amazed that I wasn't terrified.
[00:32:14] Kinga: And that kind of led to, to working with discovery and with shark
[00:32:17] Luke: week. So tell me about how you push back. On those requests because, uh, we've all had 'em right. When we're working in shark media, there's always that person who's like, you know, trying to push you to either act scared or Overy, or, and it's kind of hard for some people to tread that line, unless they've got a very hard scientific background, whether like, actually my PhD says that you are in incorrect.
[00:32:41] Luke: So how do you, as kind of more of a Hosty kind come into that and push back on the request to make it more dramatized than it needs to.
[00:32:49] Kinga: well, Luke, I'll be honest with you. I don't have a PhD, but I have the mouth of a sailor and behind the scenes, when I get those requests that that kind of goes off and also to be fair, I work with really amazing people.
[00:33:02] Kinga: And when I explain to them, uh, with a couple choice words, why I don't want to do that, People understand. And I've never really been put in a position where someone really gave me grief for not wanting to do it. They really quickly understand. So I think it's a matter of, of standing your ground. And also, you know, at this point I've been doing this for 22 years.
[00:33:22] Kinga: So, uh, and a lot of times when I work on these projects, I choose to be a producer on them because I. Some creative control over how, how it's it's presented
[00:33:32] Luke: ultimately. Um, so you mentioned, uh, shark allies a couple times and Stephanie, I know. Well, um, are you still working with them actively or what, what are they
[00:33:40] Kinga: doing?
[00:33:41] Kinga: Yeah, I am working with them. I love Stephanie. She is my mentor in the shark world. And interestingly enough, I came into the space of shark allies probably about 10, 12 years ago because of shark week. And the funny backstory there is that shark week, like 12 years ago, before social media and stuff. They did this contest where you, if you watched and then online, you could bid on meeting shark experts and then take them to lunch me as the world's biggest shark nerd thought this was the coolest thing ever.
[00:34:09] Kinga: And so I bid on all these people and I didn't read the fine print. So I won everybody cuz I don't think it was super popular. So I bid Bibi, won all these people and then realized I had bid on people all over the world and then I would email them and they'd be like, yeah, well, I'm in South Africa. I guess if you come here, you can take me to lunch.
[00:34:24] Kinga: And I won Stephanie. And so I wrote her and she's like, well, I'm in Hawaii. I guess you could come out here. I'm like, dang it. She ended up coming to LA and I wrote her again and I was like, Hey, remember when I won you, I get to take you to lunch. And I got to take her to lunch in LA and we became fast friends and started working together with shark allies.
[00:34:44] Kinga: And she ultimately moved from Hawaii to Southern California. And that's where shark allies is based now. And our, our most recent project. And she was instrumental in the first Finn band in Hawaii. Then the Finn band in, uh, which. Sale and trade in Florida. And now we are working on shark valuations, which is pretty incredible because we are actually showing the economic value of live sharks to all of these nations.
[00:35:14] Kinga: So we've looked at sharks in The Bahamas sharks in Guadalupe. We are expanding it to all these areas where shark diving is such a big part of the economy and showing how valuable these animals are alive. That's
[00:35:26] Luke: a fantastic thing to, for us to talk about, cuz uh, in this show beforehand, we've talked about, you know, the value of sharks in, you know, fishing for example, but.
[00:35:36] Luke: How much more valuable they are alive, not just to the ecosystem, but also to the local economies. So can you explain the process of valuing that? Like we can hear that, you know, a shark in the, um, Bahamas is worth a couple hundred thousand dollars alive over its lifespan versus, you know, 20 $30 dead to a local Fishman.
[00:35:54] Luke: How do you actually make that calculation
[00:35:57] Kinga: more than that? Actually, we're finding that some of these sharks, their individual value is over a million dollars each through the course of their lifetime. Because if you think about it, scuba diving itself is an elite sport and it's expensive. When I go, you can do a two tank dive.
[00:36:14] Kinga: You're looking at like 350 bucks for a day out on the water, you know, two tanks. So, and a lot of these companies will take out people. More than once a day. And what does everybody want to see? You know, and it's funny because as much as people are like, I'm so scared of sharks, that's all, anybody wants to see when they get out there, they wanna see the big fauna.
[00:36:32] Kinga: They wanna see the whales, the mantas and the sharks. It's great. So when you have these animals out there, they appeal and their attraction and what they bring to the economy. in the millions of dollars. I mean, look at Cobo Pomo on, on Baja. Right? So that was an area that was pretty decimated until they basically made that a sanctuary.
[00:36:56] Kinga: And within a few years, the biomass had returned by 400% and now national geographic discovery channel shark week divers that little tiny town with a dirt road has five dive shops. And it is world renowned as a place to go and dive with bull sharks. So it's, it is brought. So much money to the economy of that tiny little town and to, to Baja, California as a whole.
[00:37:21] Kinga: So being able to put numbers on that and putting it out in the media is extremely important because people need to see how valuable these animals are. Money talks. Doesn't it? It
[00:37:31] Luke: sure does. Um, I've spoken about this a few times with, with different people and. It seems like I hate to say it, but almost an unidealistic, um, utopia where we can look at all these places that are, that are taking sharks out of the water and be able to say to them, Hey, flip over to tourism, you know, it's, it's, it's hard, but once you get there, your nation and your local economy will thrive because of the presence of these animals.
[00:37:56] Luke: I, I wonder though, if it's. at all possible in some locations, what do you think? You know,
[00:38:02] Kinga: I think it is, I think with education and helping people understand the long game, it is, it is it, I think it's absolutely possible because the problem is that in some of these regions, and we touched on that earlier with, there are places where.
[00:38:17] Kinga: You have impoverished nations where they, they need that money immediately. So when someone comes in and says, Hey, I'm gonna pay you X amount of dollars for a bag of shark fins, whoa. That's money to feed my family. You can't villainize those people because we all need to feed our families. So you can't say, wow, you're bad.
[00:38:33] Kinga: You shouldn't do that. Let your kids go hungry. that's an awful thing to do, but I knew people that have come into those areas. I have a, I have a friend who has a, a company, an aquaculture company that is now in Lapa and they have a, uh, kapa. They have this beautiful netted Kapai area, right outside of the Harbor, really incredibly done.
[00:38:54] Kinga: And they've hired a lot of former. Shark fishermen to come work for them. So they're giving them an alternative source of income. So bringing in companies that speak to sustainability rather than utilizing our resources once and then never having them again and destroying them is, is an approach there.
[00:39:13] Kinga: So coming in and educating people and then providing alternative memes of revenue for people who desperately need. Is is a way to do that because it is a long game. If you, you know, if, if you're trying to feed your children and you go out and you harvest all the shark. Your children, aren't gonna be feeding their children the same way, cuz those animals are gonna be gone.
[00:39:33] Kinga: So what do you do to help sustain that? And it's their water, it's their ocean, it's their sharks. So if you also develop a sense of pride and a protection in their own resource, then you are ensuring. That, that they are going to be fed for a long time, but also that these animals are going to be treated in a different way.
[00:39:53] Kinga: I
[00:39:53] Luke: mean, ideally we go the whale route and we agree as nations to protect them, you know, wherever they are, but we do it bit by bit and square footed water by square foot of water, you know, for people who are sitting at home, listening to their sinking. Wow. That sounds like a great big problem that I dunno how to be a part of, uh, is there a way they can get involved with shark allies or anything like that to sort of.
[00:40:14] Kinga: Absolutely. You know, shark allies, um, saving the blue, beneath the waves are all wonderful organizations that support shark habitats, shark conservation in so many different ways. And if you go to our websites, I know shark allies specifically, cuz I work with them. We have an outline on there of, of what you can do to help.
[00:40:34] Kinga: One of the big things that people can do is that they can stop buying shark products. I mean, when you look at even your, as a woman, as your cosmetics, Man or a woman you're cosmetics. There are things in there that you should be aware of. Squealing is the big one. Squealing can be sourced from the livers of sharks, or it can be sourced from plants.
[00:40:52] Kinga: Uh, mostly olives. It is more expensive to be sourced from olives. So a lot of companies still use shark swaying. That's not a good thing, you know, and again, money talks. So if you tell them, no, I'm not gonna buy your product because I don't want shark cartilage in there. I don't want shark squealing in there.
[00:41:07] Kinga: You're telling them that we would prefer that you not use that. You know, also we know that sharks are very often mislabeled as food. Like they are. They're called Whitefish. There are so many different names for shark sharks is not something you wanna be eating. The mercury content and sharks is not a good thing.
[00:41:22] Kinga: And yet they are very often served and mislabeled. So even the thinning industry has pushed forward the shark meat industry, the cartilage industry, and the squealing industry, because when they used to be taken just for their fins and their bodies tossed back now, they're kind of. They're taken and every bit is used, even though it really shouldn't be.
[00:41:41] Kinga: So just sourcing your products better and know what you're getting is a really big way of helping obviously, you know, understanding that what the media does. I work in the media and I have good friends who are news news reporters and journalists, and I've talked to them about this and I'm like, why? And they're like, if it bleeds, it leads, it's stories, people love, and we've flat out, busted them on putting out stories.
[00:42:05] Kinga: Do they a hundred percent untrue about shark attacks and you know, my favorite is always shark infested water. Well, my living room is infested by kind right now because it's where I live. It's it's how, how can you even say that? So understanding that a lot of the dialogue that is put out there about sharks is quite frankly, a load of crap.
[00:42:25] Kinga: That is designed to, to click for you. It's click bait, essentially. So those are the very simple ways. Obviously donating to these companies is a really great thing because we are always working as hard as we can to protect sharks, to create areas that are protected, to protect their habitats, to educate people, to do what we were talking about earlier, to be able to, to, to flip people, to doing something other than harvesting sharks.
[00:42:49] Kinga: So these are all things that we're working.
[00:42:51] Luke: That's awesome. Is there a way, uh, you mentioned the makeup thing and the, the squalene and, uh, it is a little confusing for some people where they, you know, it can come from multiple places. Right. Um, is there a way that you can actually tell just by looking on the bottle.
[00:43:04] Kinga: Some places are honest about it. And some don't give that information. There are companies that we have reached out to and said, where do you source your squealing? And they won't answer us, but I think, but pressure works. If enough people write a company and say, Hey, I wanna know. I want to, I want to be a good, responsible consumer.
[00:43:24] Kinga: And I need you to tell me resource you're squealing. Eventually they're gonna have to give that up. So in, and if they're ashamed to do it, there's a reason you're ashamed cuz you shouldn't be doing. So that's, that's, that's a great way of doing it, putting pressure on it. You know, we have restaurants in the United States that still serve sharkfin soup.
[00:43:40] Kinga: So don't go there. That's Mon money talks where you, you know, you vote with your dollar. If you're buying products that have shark parts in them or, or consuming shark parts, then you are voting to continue that trend. Otherwise you are, you're putting the kibosh. .
[00:43:57] Luke: Yeah. And we're talking about, you know, pretty normal products like lipstick, for example, a hundred percent.
[00:44:02] Luke: So in many lipsticks, it sounds gross because it is chapstick. Some people are literally rubbing dead shark on their lips so that they can not. Get chap lips, exactly. Or to look pretty
[00:44:14] Kinga: exactly. And they don't even know it. And that's the part I think most, and they don't need to be. Yeah, they don't need to be, you don't need to doesn't make you any pretty or trust
[00:44:20] Luke: me all right.
[00:44:22] Luke: Well, we'll leave people with that thought of, uh, rubbing dead sharks all over their faces because that's just hopefully horrific enough to make them look at the ingredients that are in things, but what's next up for you other than lounging into HETI with amazing tiger.
[00:44:35] Kinga: I'm actually going back to Tahiti.
[00:44:37] Kinga: So I, yeah, I know. I gotta go back to Tahiti again. So I'm gonna be out there hopping around on the AUI and going to some of these distant islands and just exploring a little bit more looking for
[00:44:48] Luke: more sharks. That sounds amazing. I appreciate you spending some time in between your island hopping to hang out with us.
[00:44:54] Luke: Uh, is there any other shoutouts you wanna give to people before we.
[00:44:56] Kinga: You know, there are so many great people, obviously I'm, I'm grateful to discovery for allowing us to even showcase these types of shows that have such a conservation and science, slant, shark allies, uh, beneath the waves, saving the blue, uh, Dr.
[00:45:11] Kinga: Tristan Guthridge and Austin Gallagher. I mean, they were awesome co-host and, and all the people that. One of the things I have to say, all the people that I've met, who work with shark week, fricking love sharks. And I love
[00:45:23] Luke: that. That's awesome. Well, Kinga, we've gotta have you back after your next step trip out there, just to be jealous about diving in those waters.
[00:45:29] Luke: Cuz that sounds amazing. but we'll catch up with you next time. Thanks so much for being here today. Thank you Luke.
[00:45:41] Luke: So that was Kinga and I'm sure you'll agree with me. Like, wow. What are eloquently spoken? Awesome voice for sharks. That woman is like, I, I love watching her shows and she's got such a, a fresh take on sharks and, you know, the ocean in general is such passion for it that I could watch her shows till the cows come home.
[00:45:58] Luke: So, you know, let's give her another show Tahiti, but you know, also remember other shark divers out here who want to go to Tahiti discovery, hint, hint. But, uh, we're, we're up to the fin. And, you know, we did a lot of talking about Marine protected areas, but not really sort of hammering at home. You. Now a Marine protected area is simply an area that's been designated to not be fished in certain ways.
[00:46:19] Luke: So we might have a, a no take shark area. You can't catch sharks in these area, or we might have a total Marine protected area, like the ones in Tahiti where there's no commercial fishing. So locals can take some fish, but there's no mass harvest of the biomass under the water. We're established that sharks are worth a whole lot of money to the local economies.
[00:46:39] Luke: If we let them live. But we are faced with problems where we're not protecting the places that sharks travel through. And we have many, many nations that are challenged. Because we're expecting first world services out of third world countries that have incredible oceanic resources, but no real way to make money off 'em except from harvesting them.
[00:47:00] Luke: And that's really what we've come down to. You know, we're talking to people like Kinga, we're talking to people like Madison who's been on here before, and we're, we're addressing these issues of the deficiencies of some nation's ability. To be able to capitalize on their oceanic resources, particularly sharks, but it's not just sharks.
[00:47:20] Luke: It's the healthy reefs that come about because of sharks. It's a healthy fish life. It's the beautiful crystal blue waters that we associate with beautiful diving and, and lots of Marine life there. All of this is possible, but we don't live in utopia and it's not gonna happen. Overnight. It's certainly not gonna happen worldwide.
[00:47:39] Luke: And will it all happen in time? You know, by the time the world comes around to saying, oh, we really need to protect this ocean. We really need to protect these resources. Will there be any left? That's one of the biggest questions in science right now. Do we have enough time to save? What's left? The sad answer for some species is no there isn't, but.
[00:48:01] Luke: Putting the optimistic hat on there is time to do everything we can to prop up the nations who need it to encourage these Marine protected areas to expand. So I know it's one of these great big problems that we try to solve, and we don't really have good answers for except to support good legislation to make sure you're not buying shark products and to sink your money into places that are.
[00:48:24] Luke: The responsible thing, you know, I I've mentioned it before on a show, but it's worth mentioning again, you know, something as small as when you go to the restaurants that are, you know, on the coastline and asking, 'em not to bring straws over, or if they're bringing, you know, plastic, anything else used biodegradable products, you know, because those types of actions force.
[00:48:42] Luke: The, the management to think about, you know, sustainability and it's not just in the plastic products, it's also in what they're bringing to your table. It's also in the tours that they're recommending. You know, there are things that we can do in voting with our dollars that will promote better use of our oceans.
[00:48:59] Luke: And, you know, in the future on one of these next podcasts, uh, we're gonna be welcoming guests who. Different points of view as well. People who want to perhaps more exploit the ocean or they think that sharks should be, you know, that are getting too many, you know, we, we welcome those voices as well. I want that discussion.
[00:49:16] Luke: I don't think you are right, but I want to hear your point of view, but for today, we're just gonna say that French Polynesia, good job. You've got some healthy sharks and we're stoked to see them and we can't wait to see them on discovery.
[00:49:33] Luke: And okay, that's it for today's episode. I want you to stay tuned to this feed. As we continue to cover the Sharkies current topics, we'll talk to top scientists and experts and learn about the latest conservation efforts to keep this amazing animal from extinction. Thank you for listening to shark week the podcast.
[00:49:49] Luke: Be sure to rate us five stars and subscribe for more shark, fun facts until next time I'm Luke Tipple. I'll chat to you soon.