Luke Tipple is joined by shark fishing advocate & founder of FlyZone Fishing Robert ‘Fly’ Navarro in a fiery debate about shark fishing tournaments.
Luke Tipple talks with author, shark fishing advocate & founder of FlyZone Fishing Robert ‘Fly’ Navarro in part one of a two-part debate. In a fiery, enlightening conversation, the pair discuss shark fishing tournaments, shark finning, ocean conservation and much more, even managing to find some common ground along the way! Plus, they discuss the death threats Fly has faced and why it’s so important to maintain an open dialogue when speaking about divisive issues.
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[00:00:00] Luke: On today's podcast, this is part one of our conversation with Robert Fly Navarro. He's an author, a sport fisherman, and founder of fly Zone Fishing. He's also an outspoken shark fishing advocate, and we'll be going head-to-head on a range of issues from shark fishing tournaments to the Sharkfin trade.
[00:00:19] Luke: Trust me, this is one episode of Shark Week, the podcast that you don't wanna miss.
[00:00:26] Luke: I'm Luke Tipple, marine biologist. Frequent voice on my favorite things, oceans and sharks, and I'm stoked to bring the magic of Shark Week right to your ears. You know, sharks have been a big part of my life for over 20 years. They're a critical part of the ocean and a conduit to a better understanding life on our planet.
[00:00:45] Luke: So whether you've never seen Shark Week before, or you've been a diehard fan over the 30 plus years it's been around, this podcast is for you.
[00:00:59] Fly Navarro: Luke, are you gonna,
[00:00:59] Luke: are you gonna ring the bell? Ding, ding. Yeah. Hang on. Uh, let's, let's jump right again. . Yeah, just like
[00:01:04] Fly Navarro: Apollo Creed, man. I love it. .
[00:01:07] Luke: That may actually be the, uh, perfect introduction to this. But in case we don't actually use this, and I advise that we do, uh, let's do a little more formal introduction.
[00:01:16] Luke: So on this episode, we have. Special and highly requested guest, um, Mr. Robert Fly Navarro. Now he has been infamous in some shark circles of late, and, uh, we've seen him all over the news. I've been looking forward to this conversation for quite some time because I think we're gonna find some common ground.
[00:01:34] Luke: We're definitely not gonna have, uh, a lot in common, uh, particularly when it comes to the emotions. But we're looking forward to a discussion about shark. Tournaments and shark conservation in general. Welcome to the show, Robert Fly Navarro,
[00:01:48] Fly Navarro: welcome. Uh, thank you so much for having me, and I, I have a feeling that you and I are gonna have more in common than you expect.
[00:01:58] Fly Navarro: We'll
[00:01:58] Luke: see. We'll see. I mean, I. I'm first and foremost a scientist. I absolutely love sharks. It's been my career, um, for longer than I can really remember. Um, something that I fell in love with at five years old and wanted to be custo and travel around the world and, and do all this stuff. But I like to stick to the data.
[00:02:17] Luke: Um, I know that. This isn't a perfect world. I know that it's not a practical thing to say, Hey, we can't kill sharks, even though it would be great if we could, um, but the data has to speak as long as the science is there. I can handle uncomfortable truths. So let's dive into it. Let's, for people who don't know who you are, introduce yourself and what you do.
[00:02:39] Fly Navarro: Okay, so, uh, my name is Fly Navarro. I go by fly. Um, I've been a professional fisherman now 32 years. Approximately, let's see, eight years ago I went into business for myself. I created a social media marketing company to promote. Fishing as a sport and as a tourist destination activity about eight years ago.
[00:03:03] Fly Navarro: Since then, um, I have branched out to a lot of different other things. Uh, I've expanded my social media company to a full fledged digital marketing company. Uh, partnering up with some people. I'm also in the process of launching my own television network, uh, right now. Um, and also, uh, creating events, uh, on different military installations all over the world to promote, uh, our great sport of, of fishing and anything that gets people outdoors and enjoying the environment.
[00:03:33] Luke: So what category of fishing is your.
[00:03:38] Fly Navarro: Man, that's a great question. I, if I'm gonna go with this, Let, let's go a couple things. Let's go with a species. I think, uh, blue marlin fishing would probably be my number one favorite. Um, but me personally, and I, and I just had this conversation, uh, literally on the call I was on before, um, there's a big difference between fishing to.
[00:03:58] Fly Navarro: And, and you can quote me on this cuz I, I've put it in my book and I've said it many times, There's a difference between fishing and catching people and people confuse that. Um, catching is the actual reeling in of a fish. Uh, but fishing is the time that you spend with your friends and family, uh, to get to know one each other.
[00:04:17] Fly Navarro: Um, and, uh, even this, I consider this fishing because we're talking about this same exact sport. We're talking about the environment, the conservation of it. Uh, so that in itself, I, I still consider this fishing cuz this is, uh, A little bit. What we're gonna discuss today is how to preserve, uh, our resources.
[00:04:40] Fly Navarro: So I consider this still fishing. So, um, for me it's anything that gives me the opportunity to meet new people and discuss new ideas, even if they're not on the same level. Um, that's what I consider fishing. So I don't have a, i, I have some specific species that I enjoy fishing for. I just got back from Canada.
[00:05:02] Fly Navarro: Fishing for giant bluefin tuna, which is one of my favorite, um, things that I do every year. But one of the biggest reasons I enjoy doing it is because of the people I get to hang
[00:05:11] Luke: around. Sure. So how did you get into shark fishing or shark catching, however you want to categorize it. .
[00:05:19] Fly Navarro: Well, first of all, um, Shark for me, sharks have always been a bite catch.
[00:05:25] Fly Navarro: It's, um, I, I've never really been a shark fisherman. Um, that is something where I'm from. I'm from, I grew up in South Florida. Most of my fishing has taken me throughout Central South America, the Caribbean, uh, where sharks were just, uh, an un. Unintended species to catch, uh, while you were fishing for blue Marlins or white Marlins?
[00:05:47] Fly Navarro: Uh, we had a lot of shark interactions, uh, while we were fishing for different species. And, uh, at that point we would have, uh, shark deportation. And for people that are not familiar with that word, it's any time that a shark, uh, ends. Eating what's on your fishing line if you're fishing for snapper grouper, blue marlin and a shark, uh, ends up eating, uh, or killing the fish that you're trying to
[00:06:12] Luke: catch Most of what we've seen of you lately.
[00:06:15] Luke: And, uh, I don't know if this is something that you've been on the radar of most people for a very long time in the fishing community. Obviously you seem to be a, a fairly popular guy. Obviously with your social media outreach, I imagine you're a good promoter in, in certain circles, but you popped onto the radar of a lot of, uh, shark people in your recent promotion of, uh, the tournament in Palm Beach.
[00:06:37] Luke: You are at least portrayed as somebody who, uh, highly advocates for shark fishing tournaments. Is that a mischaracterization of your day-to-day? Yes. Okay. So what proportion of your life is spent either promoting shark fishing tournaments or advising on shark fishing tournaments?
[00:06:59] Fly Navarro: Probably about 1%. Okay.
[00:07:00] Fly Navarro: Uh, Uh, and maybe even less than that, but it's become, uh, a little bit of a, of a problem here, uh, as of recent, in the last six or seven years. Uh, so because of my reach, a lot of people will reach out to me to help me, uh, to ask me to, uh, either speak for them, help them get the word. Because I am an advisor on the HMS advisory panel, which is the highly migratory Species advisory panel.
[00:07:30] Fly Navarro: Um, it's my job to listen to my constituents on the recreational side to when they have a problem, when they see something, uh, they contact me and then I report it back to the federal
[00:07:42] Luke: government. Okay. Well, let's break down a couple things there. So, uh, as an advisor to hms, are you a Noah?
[00:07:51] Fly Navarro: No, I am not that number one.
[00:07:53] Fly Navarro: That is one of the first fallacies. I am not a Noah, uh, employee. I do not work for the federal government. I work for myself. Uh, I own my own, I own several companies. Uh, I, I, I work for myself and my number one job is to promote our sport. Okay?
[00:08:08] Luke: So when you're dealing with hms, not just dealing with sharks, you're dealing with all the highly migratory species.
[00:08:16] Fly Navarro: Correct. And for people that don't know what highly migratory feces are, that's any of the billfish, blue, marlon, white, marlon, sailfish, swordfish, uh, any of the tunas, blue fin, yellow fin, big eyes, um, and all of the sharks. So, uh, And we break that down into usually two categories in our meetings. Uh, there's the recreational side and then, then there's a commercial
[00:08:39] Luke: side.
[00:08:40] Luke: And when you talk about, uh, you said in the last six or seven years there's been a problem. What is the problem?
[00:08:47] Fly Navarro: So, uh, over the course, uh, so I've been on the board now. It's either seven or eight years. I'm, I can't remember. I think I'm on my third term. Um, what we're starting to notice, uh, is an. Increase in shark degradation.
[00:09:06] Fly Navarro: So, uh, the number of shark interactions, uh, on what used to be a monthly basis. Now it's, uh, it went from a monthly to a weekly. Now here in South Florida, it's become almost a daily issue, uh, the number of shark encounters, uh, that people are having. So, uh, it's something that came on the radar of the agency.
[00:09:28] Fly Navarro: The agency being, uh, Noah and National Marine Fisheries, and they. To our attention, um, because of the amount of, uh, complaints that people were having. So, uh, they started talking about it. I would say approximately, I'd have to look at my notes, but I wanna say six years ago was the first time I went on record, Uh, and.
[00:09:50] Fly Navarro: Discuss the problem that we're having.
[00:09:52] Luke: Okay. So if there is a shark depredation, I'll, I'll use your language for now and call it a problem. Um, why is a fishing tournament a suitable place to discuss it?
[00:10:03] Fly Navarro: Uh, and actually that is a great, great question. Um, because of the fact the shark tournament and let's, let's bring it down, let's break it down into a couple different parts here.
[00:10:14] Fly Navarro: If, if you're okay with this. Sure. So, um, There's, there's a lot of ways to bring attention to certain problems that we all have. Some people, uh, would like to, uh, go out and protest, which we're absolutely allowed to do in, in our country. Uh, here in the United States. You can go out and protest as you saw, uh, very avidly, um, by the people that were against the Shark Tournament.
[00:10:40] Fly Navarro: Um, and a lot of the portrayals of the. Uh, were wrong. Uh, we feel that they were wrong. Um, at the last meeting, uh, somebody, uh, one of the public commenters came in and, um, he didn't call me out by name, but he said, uh, listen, there's tournaments out there that are proponent, uh, calling. And I'm using air quotes because we're on audio here, cull of sharks.
[00:11:07] Fly Navarro: And, uh, never once was this tournament ever designed for the culling of sharks. Uh, now, uh, if you go online, I'm sure, uh, we saw. People, Uh, it was never anybody that had to do with the tournament, but there were people that were talking about calling of sharks. Um, but that's not, that was not the purpose of, of this tournament, this purpose of this tournament, uh, of, and we're, we're not scientists.
[00:11:35] Fly Navarro: We we're, I'm not trying to say even though we had scientists there. What we're trying to do is get. We're trying to get numbers. We wanna get data. Um, we want to get a data set to, to give back to the federal government and the state agencies. And what we wanted to show was for X number of fishing hours, we had x number of sharks caught.
[00:11:58] Fly Navarro: X number of sharks released and X number of sharks
[00:12:01] Luke: harvested. Okay, so let's dive straight into that data. If you are out there collecting data, um, I believe you ended up landing, was it nine Bull Sharks and the stated, is that correct? Nine Cor, correct. Nine. Okay. And, and I know the stated objective was to only target bull sharks, uh, for at least, uh, the, the.
[00:12:22] Luke: To bring back to the dock because that is a legally permitted species to take right now. What was the data for catching effort versus number of shark
[00:12:31] Fly Navarro: interactions? So, um, All the tournaments that I put on, and the majority of tournaments that I fished in have been billfish tournaments, marlin tournaments.
[00:12:41] Fly Navarro: So, um, our numbers as far as catch and release ratios were right there alongside of, uh, shark tournaments. We had a 97% release ratio. We release 329 sharks to nine sharks harvested, uh, with a seven hours of fishing by I believe, and I apologize, I can't remember the number right off the top of my head. I believe we had, uh, 50 boats or 54 boats participating.
[00:13:10] Fly Navarro: So if you multiply 54 boats by seven hours, uh, that's the number of hours we had fishing, uh, which. Give or take, that's something like 350 hours and yeah,
[00:13:22] Luke: it's roughly, roughly one shark interaction per hour of fishing effort. Correct. Give or take. And being that I'm And you specifically targeting sharks, so that sounds like a pretty slow day fishing to me.
[00:13:32] Fly Navarro: Uh, actually, uh, when I took it back to the federal government, they were. Unbelievably surprised. They did not realize it was that high. You're
[00:13:41] Luke: also talking about multiple species,
[00:13:45] Fly Navarro: you know, but we're talking, Whoa, whoa. Yeah, yeah. No, no. We're talking about all the sharks and you, what you have to understand.
[00:13:51] Fly Navarro: One of the things that we wanted to do because of the fact that this was something that we were trying to, and the whole purpose of the tournament was to get some data to take back to the government and also. Back to the government to say, Hey, listen, we need some proper stock assessments. We need some proper funding by the government, whether it's state or federal, to uh, to talk about this.
[00:14:18] Fly Navarro: What we're calling a problem, and this is the pro, this is the issue that I'm having, that I have with this, and this is where you could agree or you could disagree. So our federal government, and anytime you deal with any kind of corporation or uh, a body that big, uh, they usually do not do macro manage.
[00:14:41] Fly Navarro: Or, I'm sorry, re rewind that they do not do micromanagement, they do macro management. So, um, what we're looking at right now is we're starting to see an increase interactions with sharks. Uh, what I do not wanna see. And one thing that I'm a very, very big proponent on is sharks are very important in our ecology.
[00:15:05] Fly Navarro: It's, it's something that we need. What I do not want to see is this uptick that we're seeing because we're spending so much time on the water. And when I say we, I'm talking about recreational fishermen. Uh, there's a commercial aspect to this. I do not wanna speak on that because I'm not part of that community.
[00:15:23] Fly Navarro: Uh, we're starting to see an uptick on. Uh, this shark number of interactions. Is this something normal? Are we getting to a normal interaction? Are we getting to an abnormal interaction? I don't know, and I'm not here to say that we are. What I'm saying is, uh, government. Please pay attention to what is going on right now.
[00:15:50] Fly Navarro: Do not let this thing take 15 or 20 years because the only thing that the federal government knows how to do is macromanage, which is. Okay, guys, go out and wipe them all out like they did in the seventies. I do not want to, I do not want to see that because that, that will go against everything that, um, all of us believe in you myself, many, many fishermen.
[00:16:17] Fly Navarro: So one of the things that we wanted to do was bring attention to, Hey, listen, there's a. We are seeing a lot of sharks. We wanna show you, we've invited all the scientists to come with us, uh, because there is a trickle down effect. Uh, and I don't know when the tipping point is. We may never reach it. Um, but right now we're getting to the point.
[00:16:42] Fly Navarro: On the recreational side where people that come down to Florida on vacation, um, where they used to be able to pay X amount of money to go on a boat and come back home with a bag of snapper, a bag of group, or a GRA bag of whatever to take back a home and eat. You want fish to eat? People go fishing, they want to eat fish, and that's, that's fine.
[00:17:01] Fly Navarro: Florida, uh, the recreational fishing industry in the state of Florida is $119 billion a year industry. People come to Florida to go fishing. Some people do it, catch and release. Some people go to, uh, bring fish home. Well, what's starting to happen is, uh, these people have to start going two or three days to be able to bring back the amount of fish that they used to be able to bring back home 10 years ago.
[00:17:28] Fly Navarro: And, uh, that might not seem like a big deal. And right now, maybe it isn't a big deal, but it's definitely something that we've seen a couple of
[00:17:36] Luke: upticks, but that that's not a, forgive me for directing, but that's not a, a shark. Create a problem that's a overfishing problem.
[00:17:44] Fly Navarro: Uh, I, Hold on a second. No, no, no, no, no.
[00:17:47] Fly Navarro: You're, we don't know what the cause and what the effect is. You're assuming you're, No,
[00:17:52] Luke: no, no. I, My next, my next thing was gonna say that we don't necessarily have the data to prove. That it's overfishing, but we also don't have the data to prove that it's sharks. What we do know is that the recreational fishing fleet has increased exponentially over the time period you're discussing.
[00:18:08] Luke: Absolutely.
[00:18:09] Fly Navarro: But let, let's, let's go back to what you talk about overfishing and um, I. I'm assuming you're not from Florida.
[00:18:16] Luke: I actually live in Pompano Beach. Yeah, , do you really? Okay, cool.
[00:18:19] Fly Navarro: Yeah. So how, how long have you lived in Florida? Not,
[00:18:21] Luke: not that long. A few months. Okay. So, but I mean, I've been over here working with sharks about 15 years.
[00:18:26] Luke: Okay,
[00:18:26] Fly Navarro: cool. So in Florida, uh, let's rewind, let's, let's, uh, go in our time machine and rewind My senior year in high school, one of the things. So happy about, um, my senior year in high school, the state of Florida passed an amendment that outlawed gill netting in ensure gill netting in the state of Florida.
[00:18:47] Fly Navarro: Are you aware of that amendment? No. How is that
[00:18:49] Luke: relevant?
[00:18:51] Fly Navarro: Okay, great question. Great, great question. So one of the things that happened when they outlawed that, that ban on gill netting, it started allowing, uh, more bait fish, more forage fish. To live and ensure waters with that number of forge fish increasing.
[00:19:14] Fly Navarro: Uh, it took about 10 or 15 years and then we started seeing an abundance of other fish. Um, and some of those other fish were refu, inshore fish, like snook and tarpon, the number until we had the freeze of, I think it was 10 years ago, the numbers of snook in our water were exponentially better than they ever had been in, in several decades.
[00:19:36] Fly Navarro: Uh, and then about seven to 10 years ago, we started seeing numbers of sailfish offshore species. Just boom. In Florida, uh, where people catching three sailfish in a day, which was a great day of fishing, now people are catching 15, 20, 30 sailfish in a day. They're catching more kingfish in a day, more dolphins in a day.
[00:20:02] Fly Navarro: The number of fish that people were catching individually, Not as a whole because of like what you're talking about, we, we've actually absolutely increased the number of, of fishing hours off the state of Florida, but we've also increased the number of fish being caught. Is it just because the fish stocks are better or is it because techniques have gotten better?
[00:20:25] Fly Navarro: Uh, again, There, there's a lot of variables here that we do not know. Uh, but this is something, me fishing here all my life, it's something that I've definitely seen. Is that the reason why fishing got better? I don't know. But it's, it's again, as you work with forage fish, then you start going to predators and then you work your way all the way up to apex predators, which is sharks.
[00:20:49] Fly Navarro: So that being said, it goes back to my first question or my first statement. We have, we're just asking the government, Hey guys, please, let's pay better attention to what could be a problem. Or you guys could come back and say, Hey, listen, we're, we're just getting, we're just getting back to normal. Yeah, we don't know.
[00:21:11] Fly Navarro: We don't know that answer. But until, uh, we created this tournament, Nobody was listening. Okay, well, let's, And guess what let's you, you guys helped us get the government to listen. Well,
[00:21:26] Luke: that's a no small feat, in, uh, in any case, if the government's actually listening and doing a job, that'd be fantastic.
[00:21:47] Luke: So let's, let's focus on that. Um, I mean, when you talk about we don't really, you know, know about overfishing and the assumptions of overfishing and stuff in a recreational fishing fleet where people are coming down and going out and catching fish and stuff. I mean, we do know, uh, some stats about, you know, local reef fish, for example, like, uh, University of Miami.
[00:22:05] Luke: That, uh, grouper of snapper are about 85% overfished, you know, below the levels where they should be. And that is a species that I know people go out and go for and then complain about the tax man or the shark coming and getting them. But let's reel it back to how you popped up on our radar, which is tournaments.
[00:22:24] Luke: Now you bring up some really good points that I can agree with where, you know, we need data. We want to know more about shark. If there is a depredation problem due to an excessive sharks, it's certainly something we we'd wanna see. There isn't any scientific data that shows, uh, that sharks are anything much more than at sustainable levels.
[00:22:48] Luke: For the sharks in the US waters that are permissible to be caught. And globally, we know that shark numbers have depleted incredibly, um, you know, up to 90% by some fair assessments. But I will say in the US that doesn't necessarily appear to be a problem for some species. So I want to talk about tournaments and why that that's a, uh, a.
[00:23:16] Luke: Place to discuss shark conservation because your spokesmen suck the . You're up there.
[00:23:23] Fly Navarro: Now be be careful because you brought me on here as a spokesman. No, no, no.
[00:23:27] Luke: I, I'm actually, so you telling me I suck Actually, I think you are eloquent and I didn't call say that you suck, but the spokesmen that you're going out there, the fisherman you're sending out to collect the data, the fishermen that you're saying, uh, your data collector's data points are the same ones that we see dragging shark.
[00:23:44] Luke: Punching sharks, catching the wrong species, beating protected sandbar sharks. I mean, I know that these might be outliers, but shouldn't, shouldn't the avenue be to go and get funding and take out scientists and do this the right way?
[00:24:00] Fly Navarro: A absolutely. But let then, let me ask you that same question in, in retort.
[00:24:04] Fly Navarro: Sure. Uh, The group that you're with and I can, I'm more than happy to share it with you, the number of death threats I received. The number of calls I got in two o'clock in the morning telling me don't step outside cuz I'm here with a gun. Yeah. The people that the term, the reason become I became the spokesperson is because the tournament director people actually put the address of where his wife works and where his kids go to school and they said, Go kill his kids.
[00:24:33] Fly Navarro: Are those your spokes? I
[00:24:35] Luke: am not affiliated with those people, and I'll be the first one to say that. I don't advocate for anything like that. I do like protest, but I would not advocate for anybody. I mean, it's an animal. We're passionate about it, but that should not make a crossover into personal violence.
[00:24:48] Fly Navarro: That's why I, and the only reason I'm bringing that up is in, in any spectrum. And I'm gonna go to a, just so you can see it on the screen. You have five, you have 5% on this side that go a little bit overboard, and you have 5% on this side that go a little bit overboard, but in the middle, just like we're having a great conversation right now.
[00:25:09] Fly Navarro: I would assume that you and I are somewhere here in the middle, just a little bit on this side and a little bit on this side. But, um, We can have a, an honest discussion about how we feel. So I can definitely say that there are some outliers that don't speak very good for my sport. But you can say the same thing about yourself.
[00:25:32] Fly Navarro: I
[00:25:33] Luke: can, I mean, let's, if we wanna put it on the table, I'll tell you how I feel about all this. Um, I feel that globally. Shark stocks are unde, debatably in decline.
[00:25:46] Fly Navarro: And I agree, I agree with you on that 100%.
[00:25:49] Luke: While, uh, we, and I say we, because I'm, I'm actually, I hold dual citizenship. I'm an American citizen.
[00:25:55] Luke: I've been here working with sharks for. 17 years, I'll talk about we in the, you know, quote unquote colloquial us. We put out a lot of media that bashes the rest of the world for their abuse of global fish stocks and their abuse of their local ecosystems and our complaints that other countries are to blame yet.
[00:26:17] Luke: We turn around and in our media, we, you know, sport, the idea of going out and catching sharks for fun. I think that that's a, uh, a messaging problem for sure. I don't necessarily think that. Shark fishing tournaments are an ecological problem because for the most part, the take isn't that high, especially when you're comparing to, you know, offshore fishing fleets and commercial fleets.
[00:26:42] Luke: It's just not, but optically it's a terrible precedent to be setting that, hey, what we're asking you to do to protect our world and global, you know, fish stocks is not something we are prepared. Also be subject to. So that's how I feel. I feel that we should not be targeting sharks in a public sense. The data would show, which is how I actually would prefer to be sitting.
[00:27:07] Luke: The data would show that certain species are sustainable take, and I'm okay with that too. I'm fine with people eating shark as long as it's sustainably managed. The tournament was organized, uh, to target bull sharks in an area where those, uh, heavy shark diving activity in an area that is regularly fished by a lot of recreational fishermen and to the inward looking person, to somebody who's on the outside looking into you guys, regardless of the rhetoric that comes out from you or the outliers of, of the crew associated with it.
[00:27:41] Luke: Um, It would look to them like bull sharks were being specifically targeted in a certain area, perhaps to reduce their numbers, whereas your side of it is, it's for science. How do you, how do you pass that? How do you justify that it was for science? Um,
[00:28:00] Fly Navarro: for several reasons. And
[00:28:02] Luke: actually that I, I'm not interrupting.
[00:28:04] Luke: Let me add something to that. How do you justify that it was the science and further, how do we justify that? It's really just not a commercial venture. You know, for the sponsorship money, et cetera, et cetera.
[00:28:14] Fly Navarro: Okay. Well first of all, we didn't take any sponsors, number one. Okay. Uh, number two, uh, after the fish were used for scientific research, whether they, uh, Said they didn't, they wanted it or not, they still came in and, and were able to take, uh, specimens of parts of sharks that they can't when they go out and only do, uh, live catch and release.
[00:28:40] Fly Navarro: They were able to take, uh, liver samples and spinal samples. They were able to do that. Then, uh, and this, I did not even know this and I'm gonna. Throw this question to you. Uh, we ended up donating the sharks to create shark repellent. Did you know that sharks were used in creating shark repellent? There's
[00:29:03] Luke: some data to show that it may be effective, but I mean, we've spoken on this podcast to the people who are doing it.
[00:29:09] Luke: It, it's not, uh, something that's being actively pursued.
[00:29:15] Fly Navarro: Well, anyway, those sharks, those nine sharks ended up being donated to a company and created, um, they, they created a shark repelling out of it, uh, which I thought. You know what I, I, I thought we were, It was just gonna go to a food bank. I'm glad it went to something that could help alleviate, make both sides a little bit happy.
[00:29:39] Fly Navarro: But I want to go back to something that Did you, did
[00:29:40] Luke: you, Sorry. Let me just, uh, Yeah, go ahead. Call you on something there. Did you really think it'd go to a food bank? Because the data shows that, that most of these large sharks are, you know, Quite toxic and usually not taken by food banks. No,
[00:29:54] Fly Navarro: no, no, no, no, no, no.
[00:29:55] Fly Navarro: Wait a second. First of all, these sharks are not toxic. Uh, it is, uh, and I'm gonna assume, and correct me if I'm wrong, I'm assuming when you say quote unquote toxic, you're talking about mercury levels.
[00:30:08] Luke: Mercury's one of them. Yeah. And toxic is probably too strong a word. It's one that does get thrown around by advocates.
[00:30:14] Luke: Um, so I'll reel back from that and talk about real data. It's not, uh, the healthiest of meat to eat, um, because of certain levels, including mercury that exist in its tissue. Um, but it won't kill you.
[00:30:25] Fly Navarro: Okay. So as long as we're on that same, uh, again, it's, it's the, um, It's the stigma because it's a shark. But before we go down that road, I wanna circle back around about something you said that this is a, also a chi shark diving area.
[00:30:43] Fly Navarro: So, uh, as we know, uh, whenever you go to any park, anywhere you go, they say Don't feed the birds, don't feed the bears, don't give them food. Uh, because what you're doing is you're changing the natural habitat or the natural habits of animals. Uh, something here. This area in south Florida and Jupiter in particular, uh, they feed the sharks to do shark diving.
[00:31:08] Fly Navarro: Uh, these sharks are, again, going back to the beginning of our conversation. Uh, they're highly migratory species. They are species that travel, uh, they go to different areas, but because of the fact that these sharks are being fed, uh, and by. Um, by some businesses they're being fed six times a day. So I don't know, I don't know the number of, uh, shark diving boats out there.
[00:31:34] Fly Navarro: I have no clue on that. But I do know that some of them go out four to six times a day and they, they are feeding these sharks, so they're not become, they're becoming non migratory, they're becoming residential fish. So you, we've changed the habit of, uh, these fish. In their transitory pattern. Uh, the other thing, um, with that being said, um, is now these fish that are supposed to be pre apex predators, they're not predators anymore.
[00:32:08] Fly Navarro: They have been taught by humans to just wait, wait for a boat. Once you hear the boat, we're gonna get fed. So, um, What is being created is a Pavlov's dog, uh, and it's, it's been outlawed in the state of Florida. It's illegal to do it in the state of Florida, and I have recently heard. And I know Noah has absolutely no jurisdiction over it, or National Marine Fisheries has no jurisdiction over it.
[00:32:41] Fly Navarro: Uh, but I, I've, again, I've only heard and read a couple little things about it that they're looking to outlaw that as well in federal waters. Let's,
[00:32:49] Luke: let's talk about that. Um, cuz you, you do bring up a couple of things that are kind of in the, um, You know, this is on our side. Like there's a lot of people who look at, at your side of things and, and, and throw out a bunch of generalities.
[00:33:02] Luke: But I can
[00:33:03] Fly Navarro: say conclusive and I'm gonna let you go on one thing and Sure. And you can continue it on. Um, for the sake of this conversation, um, my side and your side, uh, hey. You're, you're a human being just like me. There is no our side in your side. I totally get it for this. We can dispense for that. I, I totally understand it from this conversation, but the one thing I don't want people getting from this conversation is that you and I are adversaries.
[00:33:33] Fly Navarro: We're not adversaries, and I'm not adversaries with anybody that is in opposition of me. Uh, I, I. I unfortunately saw the worst of it. I saw the worst of it. I got the phone calls at two o'clock in the morning, the my side and your side, and I'm for the sake of conversation, I'm perfectly okay with you saying that, but I want people that are listening to this to know that I, I don't.
[00:34:03] Fly Navarro: Uh, because now it becomes tribalistic. Now we're tribal. Now it becomes, whatever you say, whatever Luke says is right, and whatever FL says is wrong. And it's not a my side or your side thing. It is, uh, we're looking at it from a, a different vantage point and um, there's an old Chinese proverb that says If you get five blind.
[00:34:28] Fly Navarro: And they all walk up to an elephant in different areas. They're all gonna describe it differently, but it's still an elephant. Sure. I So, so let's just, and I'm okay with you saying my side and your side, but I wanna make sure that as people are listening to this, um, I don't see you as an adversary. Uh, if anything, and it would, it would do a lot more work in the overall aspect of, uh, our state and our, uh, country and our world.
[00:34:58] Fly Navarro: If we in general stop looking at people as adversaries and start looking at 'em as, Hey, man, you may not look at it the same way I do, but how can we work together and have a proper discussion and find what. Good on one side and what's good on the other, and let's try to work together to make sure we don't create the same kinds of problems that they used to back 50 years ago, 60 years ago.
[00:35:27] Fly Navarro: We have, This is a great opportunity. You have a great platform here to discuss the problems of. Shark overfishing on a global scale, and I, and I'm, I'm agreeing with
[00:35:39] Luke: you a hundred percent. Let's, uh, okay. Let's, uh, I, I get where you're going with that. I totally agree. Um, your point is well made. Um, you know, where sitting here across virtual rooms here, I, you know, I wish we were sitting at a bar having a beer, and that'll be all fine, but, For the purpose of this conversation, as you brought up to start with, there are two sites, and you and I may be somewhere in the middle separated by a couple of degrees, but we are, for the purpose of this conversation, representing different sites.
[00:36:06] Luke: Your site is the one that got on TV and said, Hey, we're gonna go out there and fish a bunch of sharks for scientific purposes. For some would say somewhat dubious reasons. My side of the people who said, Sharks are perhaps just returning to the numbers that they're supposed to be at. We're okay with getting science on understanding what those numbers are supposed to be, but we don't need to go out there and kill them to do that.
[00:36:27] Luke: But I wanna reel back to what you were just saying about. The shark diving cuz you brought up a couple things that, uh, seem to be entering the zeitgeist but have been disproven pretty conclusively. The migratory patterns of these highly migratory species, as you mentioned, are not being changed by shark diving activities.
[00:36:44] Luke: That's been well proven in both these waters and in the Bahamian waters for multiple species, including the bull sharks. They still move off. Now what you are right about is that they will take an easy. I do think that there's a lot of operators out there over provisioning the sharks and perhaps even provisioning when they shouldn't be.
[00:37:03] Luke: The shark divers in certain waters are allowed to use attractant, but they shouldn't be feeding. So if that's happening, there's, there's certain operations that should probably check themselves on that. However, The data also shows from satellite tags, from gut contents, from a lot of the things that actually prove stuff that the provisioning isn't significantly changing their hunting efforts or the actual food that they're going after.
[00:37:29] Luke: So saying that, uh, shark diving is creating a Pavlov's dog's non migratory type scenario where they're suddenly resident is frankly nonsense fire. Um, I, can I break that down into
[00:37:40] Fly Navarro: two parts? Uh, you can, yeah. Okay. So, um, I'm gonna go back to, uh, a lot of the people that, uh, threatened my life. Uh, and I'm, I'm, and I'm not trying to, anyway, I'm, I'm going back because those are the ones that were commenting on my page.
[00:37:57] Fly Navarro: So, um, when you go back and you look at their pages, you can see, uh, that there's about six sharks that have their own Instagram page. Sharks that live on their dive spots, that have their own Instagram pages, and they show how they're feeding them throughout the year. So this shark has been in the one spot so long that the divers are creating Instagram pages for
[00:38:28] Luke: So yeah, of course. And, and when the sharks aren't there, they'll continue posting the photos. They have them. I mean, this has been known for. For decades.
[00:38:36] Fly Navarro: So that's, that's number, that's number one. Number two, um, going about Pav law's dog, when, because I've seen the sharks, what they do is when the boats, the engines are running, the sharks will come to the boat.
[00:38:50] Fly Navarro: And I can't speak from it from a divers point of view. I can only speak to it from a, a recreational fisherman's point of view. Um, the sharks don't go chasing our fish. They don't go down the line and go after the fish. The sharks hear the boat running and then they sit underneath the boat 20 feet and wait for us to reel it in.
[00:39:10] Fly Navarro: So that is definitely not a natural. Um,
[00:39:15] Luke: is, is that, Let me ask you though, is that a different behavior? I mean, I've been on a bunch of commercial fishing boats and seen that. that same behavior way offshore, like way outside of normal realms. So with your experience is something I'd like to learn from you from, is that normal behavior from sharks say 20 years ago?
[00:39:32] Luke: Um, or is that changing anecdotally or No, but still so No,
[00:39:35] Fly Navarro: no, no. And that's a great question because I've seen it 20 years ago, not necessarily here in Florida. I've seen it, um, while fishing in the Caribbean, in the Virgin Islands, there was a handful of boats. Like four or five charter boats that would go out and they would chum for Ts.
[00:39:52] Fly Navarro: And uh, the sharks learned that if they just sat there, these guys would hook the tuna and they would get three out of every four tuna. It, it's something that they learned. They learned. It's, it's an animal instinct we learned, um, and
[00:40:09] Luke: everything we do, the million. The million plus recreational boats, of which probably very few percentage you might actually be able to tell me are actually out there trying to, you know, catch big fish and whatever else.
[00:40:20] Luke: But, uh, that argument would say that the pavlos dogs that are creating the sharks and their hunting behavior coming after boats, and then the, the catch is actually the fishing fleets, not the shark divers. I would say it's. Yeah, both
[00:40:33] Fly Navarro: can be true. Um, I would say what I, what I'm saying is it's both. I'm not saying it's, again, I'm not sitting here and, and pointing the finger at only one direction.
[00:40:44] Fly Navarro: Uh, and again, I, that takes me back to what we were saying. Uh, what I was saying before is, Hey, let's find the good. On both of our sides and try to fight for the same thing instead of fighting each other. Okay?
[00:40:56] Luke: So if, uh, that perfectly reasonable explanation, why do we then need to commercialize the hunting and killing of sharks?
[00:41:05] Fly Navarro: Why do we need to commercialize it? Yeah, why?
[00:41:07] Luke: Why fishing tournaments? Oh.
[00:41:09] Fly Navarro: Oh, that's two different things. There's a commercial and then there's recreational.
[00:41:12] Luke: No, Uh, I'm not talking about commercial going out and actual commercial operations. I'm talking about the commercialization. Uh, Whether, I mean, this tournament wasn't sponsored, but there were entry fees.
[00:41:24] Luke: Uh, I've worked on a lot of other, uh, shark fishing tournaments. I actually started shark free Mariners, which uh, you may be aware of. Very aware of some 15 years ago. Yeah. Um, and, and I worked with a lot of, uh, fishing tournaments. In fact, I, uh, I was the person that got, uh, the Humane Society of the United States to sponsor and advocate for shark fishing tournaments when they were all catch and release.
[00:41:48] Luke: Why do we. Shark mortality in shark fishing tournaments or even shark fishing tournaments
[00:41:55] Fly Navarro: at all. Okay, so here's a question, and I think you just answered it, so I apologize if I'm gonna repeat myself. So, uh, what you're saying is you want no shark, even if it was a hundred percent catch and release, you want no shark
[00:42:06] Luke: tournaments?
[00:42:07] Luke: Ideally, I think, uh, well that is, that's how I feel. I'm not saying the data representative, but I feel that that'd be appropriate.
[00:42:13] Fly Navarro: Yeah. Okay. So what with that, with, with that being said, So with that being said, what's the difference between a shark tournament and a Kingfish tournament or a sailfish tournament?
[00:42:23] Fly Navarro: What's the difference
[00:42:24] Luke: to you? That I'm not a, that I'm not a Kingfish expert and I can't speak to that. Okay. I, But you might, you might get on the Kingfish podcast. No, no. And talk to them and they might have other things to say about it. So
[00:42:36] Fly Navarro: I'm, and. I'm gonna go back to the Marlin side of it because I, I feel that I'm more equipped to talk about Marlin tournaments than shark tournaments.
[00:42:45] Fly Navarro: So I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna rewind here. Um, and again, I'm just gonna point out because of, we saw the same numbers as far as a ratio of releases, um, there. One tournament in particular, uh, a Marlin tournament that, um, same thing. They have anywhere between a 93 to 98% release ratio. Um, and one of the things over the course of 30 years in this tournament with having scientists do DNA samples and studying samples and stuff like that, uh, what they were able to do was.
[00:43:24] Fly Navarro: They were able to discover a new species of bill fish and um, Tournaments. Again, they're tournaments are not only just a, a, a competition between fishermen, but it's also a way to bring economics to a certain community. Uh, now mind you, our to this shark tournament here was a very small tournament.
[00:43:50] Fly Navarro: Everybody was local. We couldn't broadcast it out because we tried to, but unfortunately because of the death threats, um, We had a lot of places saying, Nope, we don't want you here. And listen, you're a private company, you're a private location, you're allowed to do whatever you want. You're, you're perfectly allowed to do whatever you want.
[00:44:10] Fly Navarro: But, uh, that being said, uh, tournaments in, uh, Every different community, whatever different species it is. Uh, if you have a large mouth bass tournament in Belgrade that brings in people to the hotels, to the restaurants, the gas stations, uh, if you have a blue Marlon tournament in Ocean City, uh, excuse me, that's a white Marlon tournament, the white Marlon tournament in Ocean City, it brings in hundreds of millions of dollars to.
[00:44:41] Fly Navarro: Uh, local economy. So that's, I mean, when people look at tournaments, you're, you can't look at just the, um, you can't just look at the direct, uh, economy that, that goes to. The fishermen, Oh, the fishermen won a million dollars. You have to look at the, the entire, it's. It brings people together, competition, um, whether it be all catch and release, whether it be a modified release.
[00:45:11] Fly Navarro: Um, there's very few to moments
[00:45:13] Luke: that, well, let's, let's define those. Is there a difference in the money making opportunity for a local community or the, you know, the sports fisherman entrance or the, the payoff for the sponsors or anything like that between a full release and a, a mortality or a take type.
[00:45:31] Luke: Uh, I
[00:45:31] Fly Navarro: would
[00:45:32] Luke: say yes to what degree
[00:45:38] Fly Navarro: I, I, I can't put an actual number because I don't have that, but, uh, I don't wanna make up numbers, but I, I, I will say this. Um, good, bad, or indifferent. We're gonna, we're gonna talk about humans as a, as an animal. We're you and I are, now, we're animals. We're homo sapiens. Uh, going back to gladiator days for some stupid reason.
[00:46:05] Fly Navarro: Humans as a whole, love to see humans conquer something bigger than them. So, uh, if you have a tournament with a bunch of flags flying, You're just not gonna get as many people at the dock as you would if you were hanging a fish, a large fish. Uh, and this has nothing to do with whether it be a shark or marlin or a big king fish.
[00:46:30] Fly Navarro: People like going to the stage and watching a fish being hung up, uh, as opposed to. Somebody just having a bunch of flags hang, hanging off, saying, I caught nine sailfish. Uh, is there a, a big difference in economic impact? Absolutely, there is. I, I'd be lying if there's not, um, I can't argue with it one way or another.
[00:46:51] Fly Navarro: I'm just, You asked me a question I have to tell you. Yes, sir. Sure. There, there is a big difference. Um,
[00:46:57] Luke: it's, so for sponsors for example, is, uh, there's a, uh, there's more money they're willing to put down, or is it just more people coming and buying beers, you know, going hotels and doing all the rest? I
[00:47:07] Fly Navarro: would, I would say that, Uh, I, I, when I create a tournament, I don't, I, I don't rely on sponsors.
[00:47:13] Fly Navarro: I don't like relying on sponsors. Uh, I saw the ugly side of sponsorship this year with the number of, uh, sponsors, not for us, but for another tournament that sponsors started pulling their sponsorships because somebody had a shark category and, um, I don't like and we're, I'm watching it every day where people are holding dollars over people's heads as blackmail.
[00:47:41] Fly Navarro: And I, that's why I don't like dealing with sponsors. I like, I like to create a fun event. Uh, and, and just so you know, my events, the majority of my events are. All catch and release. I do have some that it's harvested. Uh, I have very, very stringent rules, uh, on my tournaments to prevent over harvesting a fish, meaning everything I do, um, once we have certain places.
[00:48:10] Fly Navarro: We move, we start moving up benchmarks. Meaning, unless you can beat first place, don't bring in a third place fish. I'm not gonna give you anything for it. Uh, I don't want anything for it. Don't even bring it back. Um, if your fish doesn't meet minimum requirements, uh, I don't, don't kill a fish if it's not gonna meet minimum requirements and I'm gonna move minimum requirements.
[00:48:35] Fly Navarro: I don't want to. Uh, unnecessary, unnecessary harvesting of any kind of fish, whether it be a marlin, a sailfish, a shark, a snook, a tarpon, anything, uh, if there's,
[00:48:49] Luke: you know, fly. I mean, uh, everything you're saying sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Uh, as an organizer, you sound very responsible and, and I'm not trying to target you whatsoever, but the, the take of those bull sharks, wass, I don't, I, I'm just having trouble wrapping my head around, first of all, why, why thought that was necessary, particularly with all the rhetoric that was going on.
[00:49:12] Luke: Why wouldn't you sort of pull back from that and go, Oh, clearly the community, uh,
[00:49:16] Fly Navarro: first fir, first of all, it was 100% legal.
[00:49:20] Luke: I'm not saying it wasn't legal. I'm saying what is responsible?
[00:49:24] Fly Navarro: Well, again, At what you consider responsible is different than what I consider responsible. It was we are having a tournament for who catches the biggest fish.
[00:49:38] Fly Navarro: So everybody was, We kept the rules where it was a very high minimum and you were only allowed to bring in one, and once you called in your. You were done harvesting. Meaning if you catch a 400 pounder and then two hours later you catch a 600 pounder, you can't kill 'em. You can't kill 'em. So what you're considering, uh, irresponsible.
[00:50:09] Fly Navarro: Is again, it's, it's just that vantage
[00:50:11] Luke: point. All right. You bring up some pretty good points. Uh, fly. We're gonna have to put a break in here. We're gonna continue our conversation, but this is now gonna roll into, uh, an extended podcast, which I think we'll treat as a second episode. So for everyone out there, we'll, uh, we'll finish this conversation on the next one.
[00:50:28] Luke: Fly You Cool with that
[00:50:28] Fly Navarro: same bat time, same bat channel. Let's
[00:50:31] Luke: do it. All right, We'll catch you guys on the next Shark Week podcast with more from Robert Fly.
[00:50:40] Luke: And, okay. That's it for today's episode. I want you to stay tuned to this feed. As we continue to cover the Sharkies current topics. We'll talk to top scientists and experts and learn about the latest conservation efforts to keep this amazing animal from extinction. Thank you for listening to Shark Week the podcast.
[00:50:55] Luke: Be sure to rate us five stars and subscribe for more shark fun facts. Until next time, I'm Luke Tipple. I'll chat to you soon.