Luke Tipple is joined by Madison Stewart aka “Shark Girl”, filmmaker, shark conservationist and founder of Project Hiu.
Luke Tipple is joined by Madison Stewart aka “Shark Girl”, filmmaker, shark conservationist and founder of Project Hiu. Madison returns to the podcast to discuss her work in Indonesia, helping shark fisherman transition into the tourism industry. They’ll discuss why the shark finning trade is so prevalent in Asia, the aims of Project Hiu and why Madison wants to end the misconception that Indonesian shark fishermen are “the bad guys”. Plus, the pair also talk about shark nets in Australia and explain why they need to be stopped.
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[00:00:00] Luke: On today's podcast, we'll be joined by Madison Stewart, aka Shark Girl. She's a filmmaker, the founder of Project Hiu and star of Discovery's Shark Week documentary Jaws vs The Blob. We're not here to talk about her show though, ‘cause we are here to talk about her campaign to help shark fisherman transition into the tourism industry and what we can do to try to stop the shark fin trade.
[00:00:24] Luke: All that and more is coming up on this episode of Shark Week: The Podcast.
[00:00:30] Luke: I'm Luke Tipple, marine biologist and a frequent voice on my favorite things, oceans and sharks. And I'm stoked to bring the magic of Shark Week, right to your ears. You know, sharks have been a big part of my life for over 20 years. They're a critical part of the ocean and a conduit to better understanding life on our planet. So, whether you've never seen Shark Week before or you've been a die hard fan over the 30-plus years it's been around, this podcast is for you.
[00:01:03] Luke: Now on this episode, we're re-welcoming Madison Stewart to the show. Now, she was on the podcast a little while ago, talking about documentaries, but today she's here to talk about a project that's near and dear to her heart. Welcome back to the show Madi.
[00:01:19] Luke: Um, so today I really wanna talk about shark tourism, and it's something that you are, uh, an expert at. It's something that you practice daily and something that you're an advocate for. Um, but let's start for our listeners a little bit about you, like how you got started on this and, and who are you to sharks?
[00:01:37] Madison: Sure. Um, oh, I like to think about who I am to sharks. I hope they like me. We'll never know. Um, I started when I was super young, just was a key in little kid in Australia who grew up diving with sharks because I had a dad that trusted sharks more than people. So I had great childhood, grew up diving with sharks.
[00:01:56] Madison: Um, And when I was quite young, I started to notice decline of sharks on the great bay reef, where I grew up diving, which kind of pushed me into conservation. And it kind of spiraled from there. I've been involved in a lot of things happening around the world to help sharks, but then a little bit later on, I, I started to document, I guess, more with the bad things happening to sharks.
[00:02:16] Madison: So that became my focus and led me down the rabbit hole of conservation, which is kind of what I'm focused on.
[00:02:24] Luke: So it would probably be pretty fair to say that most people have seen you in connection to documentaries and media surrounding shark fishing and, uh, you know, illicit trade and the culling of sharks, um, fairly graphic images, stuff that isn't fun to look at.
[00:02:41] Luke: What was your experience before you got into that? or how did you get into that sort of harder core side of, you know, the story of sharks? Yeah, of
[00:02:51] Madison: course it's actually super interesting because you know, everybody, everybody wants to see a shark and swim with a shark and be in the water of the shark. And that's all I wanted too.
[00:03:00] Madison: And I guess the more that I found out about the things happening to sharks. The more, I felt obligated to make sure that everybody else found out because so many of the people around the world that love sharks just don't really know the extent of what's happening to them in all of our countries. So I began to literally seek out places where sharks were being hunted and killed, uh, whether it for.
[00:03:21] Madison: Recreation for wildlife trade for all different reasons and began documenting that. And I kind of found a way to expose the things that were were happening. So it, it was really accidental. It was more like just a, a desperation to get people aware of what was going on.
[00:03:37] Luke: Well, it certainly worked and it didn't hurt that you were, I guess, kind of an anomaly in the world of shark's media that was getting put out.
[00:03:46] Luke: I mean, at the time and not saying you're not now, but at the time you're a cute little girl showing pictures of this gnarly stuff in the ocean and people looking at that going, wow. It seemed like such a just position where beforehand we had you. Mostly guys telling the story. Um, mostly guys in their sort of later years, maybe thirties to fifties.
[00:04:08] Luke: And I think you came onto the scene and it was, you know, a breath of fresh air in one sense, but also kind of this weird thing that kind of made people's brains think, oh, the younger generation. Really cares about this as well. Um, so I think you had a real impact there, which was really, really interesting.
[00:04:24] Luke: What is your focus on now?
[00:04:26] Madison: So eventually my route of conservation led me to the world's largest shark fishing nation, which is where I am currently Indonesia. So I am based out of Indonesia these days. And I, I came here completely by accident. I was dragged here by a film crew from Australia, making a documentary.
[00:04:43] Madison: And they took me to a part of Indonesia known for this like famous graphic shark fishery. And, and I'd filmed some graphic things before, but I had never seen anything like this. My first day there was like ma sharks, bull sharks, hammerheads tigers. In like up to 80 sharks, like dead laid out on this floor about to be processed, have their fins cut off.
[00:05:05] Madison: It was one of the most graphic things I've ever witnessed amongst the noise and the smell and everything. It was like the worst possible thing you could imagine. So that was like my first impression of Indonesia. And then things have very much so developed, but it's just kind of crazy how I accidentally stumbled upon this place.
[00:05:25] Luke: Yeah. So why and how were those sharks being harvested? So specifically, you know, what products were being pulled from those sharks and who was paying.
[00:05:36] Madison: So Indonesia is like many places in the world where you can target smaller, artisanal fishermen who don't have large boats. You know, they don't, uh, have like commercial fishing licenses.
[00:05:48] Madison: They've got these small boats, they make themselves, they go out to see, they catch as many sharks as they can. They don't care about sizes or species or any of the laws. And they bring 'em back and they sell them. So that that's kind of like the appeal of places like Indonesia to the shark fin trade. So the shark fins are the main prize.
[00:06:05] Madison: They have to bring the whole animal back. The shark fining is illegal in most places now, but the fins are what they're going for. So the fins will have the real value, the meat, not so much. And the fins are getting exported to countries like China, Malaysia. Um, Thailand, Taiwan, Japan. So the, the shark fin trade is the major drive for fishing in these places before the 21st century sharks were about 2% of the catch by fishermen in Indonesia, they weren't a target.
[00:06:33] Madison: So you really, really could see them become a target as soon as shark fin soup boomed back into popularity. So it was very interesting to see how those two worked hand in hand. It created this like insane storm that sharks got caught in the middle of, and now we see Indonesia, the world's largest catching nation of
[00:06:54] Luke: sharks.
[00:06:54] Luke: Tell me about project, hear and how you got involved in tourism in this area. The
[00:07:01] Madison: Indonesia's massive, massive like money maker is tourism and tourism is, is, is still like up there with the sharkfin trade to put it in a perspective like they're pretty neck and neck. Um, tourism is far more valuable, but it's a lot of money being made from both.
[00:07:21] Madison: So with that in mind, that Indonesia is like this massive hub for tourism. I kind of had this random idea. So when I was there with the film crew witnessing all this, it was such an eye opener and we filmed it and then we kind of left and I always had this like, nagging feeling like, I, I don't really like, they didn't sit well with me, especially because I know.
[00:07:40] Madison: Messed up, stuff's happening into sharks in Australia, but it's happening behind closed doors by large commercial fishing boats. So we can't go document it easily. So I'm like, why are people coming here documenting these fishermen, making them look evil when we are no better. And clearly there is a trade elsewhere driving this.
[00:07:57] Madison: So. I thought to myself, I know I, I just, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do something that happened in Mexico where shark fishermen changed their own vessels to become well watching boats, because they were making more money off taking tourists to see whales than they were fishing sharks. And I was like, what if we could do something like that in Indonesia?
[00:08:16] Madison: So I decided to go back randomly. It was like a, how old was, I was like 25 year. Australian girl that didn't speak a word of the local language, just waltzing into this like fully religious Muslim, all male dominated, shark fishing community, just being like, get a what's up. I'm here. Let's change this occupation.
[00:08:34] Madison: And I, I walked up to the first boat that I saw. Bringing sharks in that day. And they must have loaded about 80 sharks off their boats that day. And there was a man sitting on the front of the boat, just watching them unload the sharks. And he was the captain and I went up to him and I said, Hey, um, are there any good waves around here?
[00:08:55] Madison: Can you take me surfing next week? And the next week, instead of turning back out to go fishing, I hired his boat to go. Surfing and scouting local areas. And the reef was beautiful and the beaches were beautiful. And he took me on all these amazing, like little tours. And I was like, this could work. And at this point he's got no idea that I like help sharks.
[00:09:15] Madison: And that was my goal. Um, and then it spiraled from there. And now that very same captain that I met that day has a two year old daughter named after me. And he's the head of all the boats that I hire for tourism operations. So the whole goal was to distract these boats from fishing sharks, by employing the fishermen in tourism, we'd save the people and we'd save the
[00:09:38] Luke: sharks.
[00:09:39] Luke: That's a pretty smart way to approach things, Matt. I, I kind of expected you to say I went up and started talking about sharks with him, but going the other route of, you know, being the, the tourist, wanting to see surf spots and introducing tourism as a money making venture, and then segueing into sharks.
[00:09:56] Luke: That's, that's pretty smart. Good on you.
[00:09:59] Madison: Thank you. I, I really appreciate that. Um, I never knew the, the, the. Limitlessness of my manipulation until I was to do this project. But I dunno that it was smart because anybody that's seen me surf kind of knows that I'm not a keen surfer. And I just told this fisherman that I was like, yeah, I'm a pro I'm here looking for some big waves.
[00:10:20] Madison: so I probably could have chosen better cover, but it did work. I wasn't about to, I wasn't about to go up to them and say, I'm a conservationist because they hate conservationist because they go there and they film this stuff and they make, 'em look evil and the fishermen know that and they. Deserve that when they're so willing to jump into the next best thing, you know, which was
[00:10:38] Luke: tourism.
[00:10:38] Luke: So he's watching you get pressed into some pristine reefs and gone. Um, these pro surfers are not all they're cracked up. Yeah. I wonder she wants to do something else. legit. I was like,
[00:10:49] Madison: oh, this is, this is just the wrong wave. I'm good. I swear. But the waves just a little it's wrong. Wrong angle.
[00:10:55] Luke: oh, that's amazing.
[00:10:57] Luke: So project hu is your, um, tourism operation in that area of Loock. How big is it growing now?
[00:11:05] Madison: So now we have six boats, um, and it's getting bigger. We had to stop during COVID tourism completely shut down in Indonesia. And that was tragic in 2019, my captain's boat didn't fish for an entire year. There was an entire year that that boat did not go and catch sharks.
[00:11:25] Madison: And that was amazing. That's like more than 600 sharks that we saved in that year alone. Uh, and then COVID hit and it was like a big realization that, oh, this thing, tourism that I thought was gonna be this sustainable alternative, didn't quite. Um, but it was a good opportunity because we need to stop and reset and refocus.
[00:11:44] Madison: And now we're just coming back and hitting harder. And we're just going to make this operation as, as big as possible and kind of make the fisherman self sufficient in operating tourism ventures.
[00:11:59] Luke: So for an entire year, you're operating this boat and now you've got six boats running. What does the tourism look like?
[00:12:06] Luke: Like how is it advertised? What are people expecting and what type of trips are they getting?
[00:12:12] Madison: Right. So when I, when I was advertising trips, I was running trips for about a week. When I hire a fishing boat, I have it for the entire month. So I never tell them what week I'm gonna show up. They just have to have the boat ready.
[00:12:23] Madison: And that's how I know they keep them back for the entire month. And then when the. Come, they usually fly in from all over the world and they're usually come in because they care about sharks. And then it's like a week of a couple days on the boat diving on beautiful reef, maybe a bit of surfing, going to beaches, seeing like that really beautiful side of Indonesia from the locals perspective.
[00:12:42] Madison: And then there's two days that are really important. One is where we visit. The village where all the fishermen live, we talk to their families, we see their houses. And the other is when I actually take tourists to the market, I take people to go and see the other boats fishing sharks that we still have to get on side.
[00:12:59] Madison: And the sharks that are getting caught on a daily basis. And I take them to see like that gory side of stuff. So it really is an all inclusive trip of like the conservation movement here and everything that's going on here. And every. Used to leave those trips with just such a change perspective towards the fishermen.
[00:13:16] Madison: And it was, it was a really amazing thing. So I'm hoping that they can start again soon. Uh, right now we're trying to establish day trips for the fishermen so that we can tap into some of that tourism. That's already existing here without my help. My dream is for people to get on that boat without even knowing that it used to fish sharks.
[00:13:35] Madison: I want them to think it's just a tourism.
[00:13:38] Luke: now, is it like in other countries where, you know, I've personally seen, um, fairly poor communities, you know, third world countries, but they've got, you know, boats and motors that are worth, you know, tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars, you know, the equipment is being supplied by the, uh, the foreign markets.
[00:13:56] Luke: So specifically in that case, it was Chinese, uh, you know, merchants who were paying for these vessels and enabling the Fishman and. You know, and thereby the shark trade, is that also what's happening in Indo?
[00:14:10] Madison: Absolutely. I mean, yes and no. So the, the, uh, the fishing trips are commissioned by Finn buyers and they do get money for the materials to go out.
[00:14:18] Madison: But the fishmen also are responsible for hand building these vessels, and this is where it gets interesting. And this is what really got me fascinated in the topic. Is that the way that these men fish is so raw, it's so dangerous. So like such hard work for them to do. Um, and they make so little money from it, but they're still going out there and doing it so never in my life before coming to Indonesia, had I witnessed the shark trade impacting the lives of humans, but this trade is so massive.
[00:14:50] Madison: We are actually willing to put human safety second to obtaining sharkfin to bring to that.
[00:14:57] Luke: Now you say it's dangerous work. What are they doing? That is, you know, different from the conventional thought of catching a shark? Yeah,
[00:15:04] Madison: so the, the boats are obviously far more simple. Um, the fishermen are working with bare hands.
[00:15:10] Madison: I had a captain only two weeks ago receive a hook through his finger and he was dragged. Into the water via that hook, kind of like that scene on that movie. Perfect storm. It was just like that, but like the Indonesian version. So that actually happened to him. And that was one of the many incidents that they face at sea.
[00:15:28] Madison: Sometimes they fall off the boat, they're lost for ages and they gotta find them, the boats break down. They drift, they have all sorts of incidents that currency. But they still keep going out there to go after this price because they, they need that money. They need to pay back the materials that they borrowed to go out there to fish.
[00:15:44] Madison: They need to pay off their boat. They need to put their kids through school. So I've never really seen anything like that before, you know, coming from Australia and the us where commercial shark fisheries are happening off very fancy, expensive boats, and people have a really nice house and a really nice car, but this, this was different.
[00:16:00] Madison: This was like, if they don't come back with sharks, they are not going to survive for the next few weeks.
[00:16:06] Luke: Well, you say they need to pay off their boats and stuff, who is giving them that money, the
[00:16:11] Madison: trade. So the, the people that are coming in to buy the sharkfin.
[00:16:15] Luke: Okay. And then presuming their catch is successful.
[00:16:19] Luke: That they go out, they catch sharks, they bring them back and they're processed. What is the, uh, the trade progress from there? How do the fins get taken weighed, measured, et cetera, and then exported, right? How do they end up in the, uh, commercial markets in their destination?
[00:16:35] Madison: It's actually like a whole ecosystem is quite crazy.
[00:16:37] Madison: So the fins come back, the sharks are bought off the Fishman. Then the fins will. To the fin buyers and they will take them to one of the larger areas to be dried like a larger city in Indonesia. Once they're dried processed, they are then shipped or flown to another country where they will be processed yet again, and then they will get to the consumer level.
[00:17:00] Madison: So the interesting thing about that is sometimes a fisherman could be at sea for two weeks and. Amount of time, uh, make 150 Australian dollars for those that two weeks of work. And they might catch like 15 to 20 sharks for that trip, but the fins off just one of those sharks will be worth up to a thousand dollars per fin in the market in Hong Kong.
[00:17:26] Madison: So it's kind of crazy. The markups that we're seeing, and it just really speaks to the exploitation of the people involved in the trade.
[00:17:36] Luke: Yeah. Uh, you say up to a thousand dollars per fin. So are we assuming that, you know, dorsal, cordal, um, pectoral, so we're looking at a shark that might be worth, you know, four to six to $7,000.
[00:17:50] Luke: Infin.
[00:17:51] Madison: So the, in it to be more specific, the way that I've seen them labeled in Hong Kong is per Cady, which I believe is around 500 grams, which is still so, so small. Yeah. And the, and the price will change from the species as well, which has been a really interesting thing to see. So the species will, um, affect how much they get sold for at the end as well.
[00:18:09] Madison: Yeah.
[00:18:09] Luke: Uh, what species attract the, the
[00:18:11] Madison: largest dollar. So right now, hammerheads are going for a lot of money. Um, they've obviously. Quite large fins on species, such as the great hammerhead, fresher sharks are also highly valued and shovel nose. Rays have a very highly valued fin as well. And the Indonesians have an adorable name for them.
[00:18:29] Madison: They call them airplane sharks. Um, I guess cuz they're kind of shaped like an airplane. So whenever they get an airplane shark. They know that they're going to get good money for that. And the reason for that I've heard is because of the dental, the density of cartilage in their fin. So when they go to make soup with it, it's like, there's just more bang for your buck in that
[00:18:48] Luke: sharkfin in visiting Indo and seeing this trade happening.
[00:18:52] Luke: Um, What were your thoughts as to the, the scope of the take? And I guess, I mean, Indo is a, a large country with many different islands, you know, is this, uh, practice being engaged throughout all the islands? Are we talking about tens of thousands of fishermen? Like what is the, the size of the
[00:19:10] Madison: trade? Yeah, it's a good question.
[00:19:11] Madison: It's definitely one of those things that we lack exact data on. We know that it's an opportunistic thing for fishing, um, where I. Based and working here is there's a fishery specifically targeting sharks. So it may not be a case where boats in other parts of Indonesia are fitted out just for sharks, but there's definitely other parts of Indonesia that do this same kind of shark fishing for sure.
[00:19:35] Madison: Okay.
[00:19:35] Luke: So, uh, what island are you on? And is that the largest? You say it's shark centric. Is that the main one for, I.
[00:19:43] Madison: Yes. So this is this market accounts for about 10% of Indonesia's entire shark trade, which is pretty significant when you look at the size of Indonesia and the amount of ocean that they have jurisdiction over.
[00:19:57] Madison: So I'm on, I'm on the island of Loock, which is just east of Bali. It's literally the next island over. and this has been a famous place for people to come for years now because the market is very open. You can go there, you can, you know, for years this was like where conservationists would go if they needed pictures of shark fins being cut up and, and dead sharks on the beach.
[00:20:18] Madison: So it's been well known. Um, I guess I didn't realize how accessible it was. Like people can go in and see this quite easily. And
[00:20:26] Luke: I assume that market is still active.
[00:20:29] Madison: Yes, it's, uh, it's kind of crazy to think about you. You, you rarely go there and, and don't see dead sharks. Um, so what you, you have to struggle to believe sometimes, like, how is there anything left?
[00:20:42] Madison: Like this happens every single day during the pandemic I was here and I was going pretty much every single day for a couple weeks on end. And. it got a bit intense after a while, because I just started having this mentality of how is there anything left in the ocean? When we see this scale of sharks being fished on a daily basis?
[00:21:00] Luke: Yeah, well, that brings up a good point. Like how sustainable is that catch? I mean, we know any listener to this podcast and any watcher of shark week will understand that, you know, sharks are on the decline, but we do have a, you know, a fairly vocal component of, you know, recreational and commercial Fishman who will, you know, be to differ.
[00:21:23] Luke: So if this trade is happening every day and we're seeing same numbers of sharks come in every day, how do we know that that's not sustainable in that?
[00:21:31] Madison: Well, I'm not gonna comment on the science cuz that's not my, my part of things, but I will comment on what the fishermen say. My favorite quote from research done in this area is that the fishermen say they come back when the boat is full of shark fins or when they run out of.
[00:21:48] Madison: Cigarettes and lately they always run out of cigarettes first. And in addition to that, when I talked to the Fisher about where they used to fish, it's quite apparent that now they have to go further, further away from their island and spend longer at sea just to make ends meet. So it's becoming drastically more difficult for them to catch the sharks that they were once catching only a couple years ago or even 10 years ago, or that their fathers were catching.
[00:22:15] Madison: So it's definitely. Changing and the fishermen will speak to that
[00:22:20] Luke: themselves. Yeah. Is there a fear in the Fishman of losing that?
[00:22:26] Madison: It's so interesting. You say that because there, there really isn't. They have this kind of concept that the ocean will provide, and they don't really understand that we have this like delicate apex predator.
[00:22:38] Madison: I guess if you spend your life fishing sharks and seeing them at their most vulnerable, when they're thrashing around on a line, you don't ever picture them as delicate or taking them outta the ecosystem is a bad thing. But there are a few fishermen that I work with that are starting to kind of understand this concept of, Hey, this might not be around forever.
[00:22:57] Madison: And those fishermen in particular are very keen to get their children into other occupations, which is, which is really interesting. And I think that that's a big step forward is for them to, to recognize not so much the issue here, we don't expect them to like love sharks, but recognize the instability of what they're doing of the fishing trade.
[00:23:15] Madison: Yeah.
[00:23:16] Luke: How educated would you say the average adult fisherman is these
[00:23:21] Madison: days? Very, I, you know, I, I speak, come on. Like in Indonesia, definitely not talking about Florida. We're talking about Indonesia cuz in Florida, I would not say very yes. In Indonesia, Indonesia, there are, you know, I have fishermen that speak five languages.
[00:23:38] Madison: I only speak one. Uh, their knowledge of the ocean is insane. The only thing that they're lacking is what we are able to gain from a lifetime of privilege, which is the understanding that, you know, sharks are to be enjoyed as opposed to being fished and that they are a finite resource, but when it comes to education, they, they know what they were raised with.
[00:24:00] Madison: They know the ocean, they, they have so much to teach us. Um, And yeah, I, I mean, I trust them with my life at sea, so I definitely think that they are they're at the top of their game, which is another reason why it's sad to see them get exploited.
[00:24:16] Luke: Yeah. Well, would you say, I mean, everything you described there sounds like very practical knowledge.
[00:24:21] Luke: You know, a lifetime at sea will teach you a a lot and obviously they will be very educated about that, but do they have the, um, The, the, I guess the more traditional education that would impress upon them, the, oh, you know, if I do the math. My job is gonna go away and therefore I need to get my kids into a different vocation.
[00:24:44] Luke: Is, is that thinking prevalent?
[00:24:47] Madison: Yeah. So that's, it's less education and more cultural and it's definitely not. Yeah, it's definitely not in their culture to think like that. Um, You, you see, you see it an example of like trash, like they'll throw trash into the ocean in the belief that it's going to wash up on shore and make the island bigger.
[00:25:06] Madison: So , it's definitely seriously. Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's a different concept to the way that we think about things. That's for sure. Wow.
[00:25:14] Luke: I, we. Definitely need to dive into that at some point. But is, is that an actual thing? They really think that throwing the trash in the water will make the island bigger and therefore more habitable or something.
[00:25:25] Madison: Yes. Yes. So, um, waste, management's been a, a tricky thing for me to try and enforce on the island. um, yeah, that's, that's definitely something that they kind of believe.
[00:25:37] Luke: Yeah. Yeah. What is the, um, the level of coercion? Like how does a, you know, educated. Rich trader, uh, you know, money enabled trader, um, come to, uh, an island nation and say, Hey, we want to exploit all of your resources here and take all of your sharks.
[00:25:55] Luke: How does that deal? Get done money. But at, at what level, how do they approach the local government and say, Hey, we wanna Fisher territorial waters or are they more subtle in going into the fishermen and saying, Hey, we recognize that you have no money and we're gonna loan you all this stuff. And then put you on the hook and enact some type of, you know, indebted servitude, uh, to these fishermen.
[00:26:20] Madison: Yeah. All of the above, you know, it's, it's like government police, um, even the people that check the shipping contain. That go out at port. Everybody is in some level. Evolved. And it's so interesting when I say that it is an ecosystem and I I've seen it from the fishermen that catch the sharks to the buyers, to the factory where it goes.
[00:26:40] Madison: And it's interesting what you said, because with each reign up that ladder of the sharkfin trade, the next person who is a little bit higher up. Does have the cultural education required to understand that sharks are a finite resources and that this is wrong, but those are the people profiting more from it.
[00:26:56] Madison: I looked at the invoices of a shark fin export factory in one of the major cities in Indonesia. And in one month they made 156,000 us dollars through the export of shark fins in one month alone. And that wasn't even like peak fishing season. That is enough money to get away with a lot in a country.
[00:27:15] Madison: Like I.
[00:27:28] Luke: Well, surely you've already caused some waves over there, right? I mean, if you've had, if you've got six boats running for you, you know, whether they're full time or not, surely that's having some type of impact. I mean, other traders not looking at you and wondering what you're doing and approaching you to get you to stop.
[00:27:44] Luke: Okay. So
[00:27:44] Madison: two sides of this first is I'm a tiny, tiny drop in an ocean where many people are willing to fish sharks. There are boats coming from other parts of Indonesia that drop their catch off here. So I don't know that my impact is that big and I don't really care. I'm gonna do it regardless, because this is what I care about.
[00:28:01] Madison: And if I can save two sharks at the end of the day, I'm stoked. Second thing is. I actually might have a bit of an impact because every single Finn by at Indonesia now knows who I am and they do not like me. Sometimes there are some, there are some that are really great and I'm, I know them and they will take me to see where they process the sharkfin.
[00:28:22] Madison: And then there are some that will like death stem me. I had a dude. Yes. Like two days ago come up and, and just like, get real aggressive and like say something in my face. And it's, it's pretty common. I. That's less to do with me, distracting the boats and more to do with the fact that I have such an in, in this community that I can sit there and watch them process sharks.
[00:28:44] Madison: And I can, you know, know where it's going. And I, I know bits about their trade that I'm sure they'd like to keep secret and. I really, truly believe the biggest threat to them is my friendship with the fishermen. Because every time that I have an altercation with a shark fin buyer, the fishermen step in, and then the next time I'm at the market, that shark fin buyer is coming up to me to apologize.
[00:29:06] Madison: I've got like a little gang of people that are protecting me, which is so crazy because they've got two bosses, you know, they've got them and they've. Me. Um, so it's, it's really interesting. It's, it's quite an interesting dynamic. I think I'm just like a little bit annoying right now. and, um,
[00:29:21] Luke: I, I have to ask, does it concern you that that little bit of annoyance might be enough of a mosquito buzz in the ear of, you know, one of the higher ups in this trade that they're just like, just go squash this girl.
[00:29:34] Luke: I mean, you're in a. In a notoriously, um, challenging part of the world that can be dangerous. As you say, you're, you know, dealing with, you know, essentially mafia style people, if not actual mafia style, people are buying these things. So, um, what concern do you have for your own safety in this?
[00:29:56] Madison: I, I guess a little.
[00:29:57] Madison: Um, but I also see the amount that I'm pissing people off as a sign of success. So it's hard to be upset about it. Like if we are actually having an impact and helping sharks and they're mad, like that's, that's good. Um, I. But I, I think that I am too involved in the community there to ever come under fire by these other bosses.
[00:30:21] Madison: I think it would be more trouble for them than good to ever want to deal with me as if I was a problem. Um, I now have. Involvement in the community that extends to the children of these fishermen. You know, we're, we're putting them through school, we're helping the school on the island. We're supplying them with English lessons.
[00:30:39] Madison: We're trying to get them fresh water, which they don't have access to without paying for it. Like we are helping an entire community of people in order to get away with helping sharks and the way that we have gone about. Means that the shark fin buyers can't just get rid of someone. That's annoying them because we're helping the community that they're exploding and the community knows.
[00:30:59] Luke: The, the boats and captains that you're working with, is there a stated intent from you and an adopted intent from them that this activity and this practice will end shark fishing for them and their family?
[00:31:11] Madison: It's never something I've asked of them, but it's definitely something they know. Is my intention, but surprisingly enough, I really thought it was something that I was gonna have to keep secret for a while.
[00:31:21] Madison: But when it started to come out, what my true intentions were, my fishermen are now asking me why we can't have tourists every month. And I'm getting requests from fishermen that aren't employed. If they can have their own contract and be employed, I'm now getting approached. My biggest issue is resources and funding and.
[00:31:38] Madison: Facilitating as much tourism as the fishermen need to have this alternative income. So getting them on board is not the issue, which is really amazing.
[00:31:45] Luke: Yeah. I mean, it definitely sounds like. In your taking the sort of slow burn approach without really forcing it down, their throats that sharking this method of sustenance for their entire family lineage, um, has to go away and to roll the dice on tourism with you.
[00:32:02] Luke: It sounds like that's effective, but the scaling sounds like it's gonna be the real challenge for you. Cuz what you describe is not necessarily a, a shark tourism trip, it's a shark. Would it be fair to say a shark? Uh, um, AISM is that, is that a word it's it's, it's a trip for a shark advocate to go on and, you know, see some beautiful stuff and come home with a story rather than, you know, going to Guadalupe, jumping in the water, seeing great white sharks, rinse and repeat for 3000 people a year.
[00:32:34] Madison: Absolutely. I mean, that's, that's the one thing I don't have, you know, I don't have like a bunch of tiger sharks in crystal clear water in five meters, like tiger beach or the Maldives. I don't have that attraction, but I do believe now that the world is filled with people, even people listening to this podcast that want to do something good and people that appreciate sharks so much that if they know they can put their money somewhere to help them, they will.
[00:32:58] Madison: So it's absolutely. An advocacy trip for sharks, a hundred percent. It can be very confronting, but, uh, in my experience, most people want that they want to be involved in helping. They don't wanna feel powerless, and this is a way for them to do that. And that's something you can't get anywhere else, which is really cool.
[00:33:21] Madison: And then at the same time, the reef is beautiful enough and the beaches are beautiful enough that. Wants the people that, like I said, don't even know what's going on to just come on the boats because it's a great experience. And Indonesia's the one place where you could probably muster up those people and get them to come on the boat.
[00:33:36] Luke: Yeah. I mean, the one thing that Indo does have in having a, you know, very robust tourist trade is for the, you know, more touristy type activities, you know, scuba diving or even parasailing or something, you know, there's a kiosk, you can go and load in that, you know, the experience you're gonna get. It's reliable, it's there and you can go about it.
[00:33:55] Luke: So is there a way for you to turn what you are doing there into that style of activity and how long will
[00:34:04] Madison: that. Absolutely not too long. It's just a process of slowly figuring it out. But that is the goal. It's definitely forcing me to be a business person and I am not a business person. So it's, it's a, it's a learning experience for me as well.
[00:34:26] Madison: But, um, at the moment, things have gotten harder. The price of shark has gone up by 20% from last year. It's getting harder for me to compete with this trade. So I'm doing what I can when I can, and just doing the slow burn effect and waiting. That little window of opportunity that I'm gonna have to make some real change, but I know it's coming.
[00:34:48] Madison: And like I said, we're just, we're just kind of taking our time. But once we are able to tap into that, who knows, there might, there might be enough draw to this beautiful part of the world that they won't need to fish. And so something something's happened recently where there's been times where I've hired my fishermen, but I've also found out that they could.
[00:35:09] Madison: A way better wage from fishing sharks than working with me. It used to be where they'd always have a better wage working with me, but now they actually have the potential to earn more fishing sharks, just cuz the demand is there right now, but they're still choosing, working with me cuz I'm not forcing them.
[00:35:24] Madison: And when I question them about this and I was like, why, why is it that you're doing this? Like you could make, you know, 30% more fishing sharks this month. And the response I got from them was two words. Accidents happen. They don't wanna go out there and do this. They don't wanna be separated from their families.
[00:35:39] Madison: They don't wanna risk prosecution for catching illegal species or fishing in protected waters. It's very clear that if they can work for a little less, but do it safely and a little bit of easier work it's way easier pulling me into the boat than pulling in like a 400 pound tiger shark. So , they're much happier
[00:35:55] Luke: doing that.
[00:35:56] Luke: yeah. Would those boats, um, have the capacity to take, uh, a more traditional group of shark divers who come on with their, their cameras and this scuba gear and everything else to take 'em out to a site and perhaps it be as an established site or at least a reef that is, you know, UN fished and see sharks in Indonesia, reliably is, is that within the capacity of, of this location than people?
[00:36:20] Luke: I
[00:36:20] Madison: think it's possible. I definitely do. there's a, there's a lot of things to think about, you know, like I, I know where the sharks are. The fishermen know where the sharks. But if I go and seek out those sharks and try and get them close to us, are they just gonna get fished by someone else? How do I create this entire community change?
[00:36:40] Madison: Where everybody sees them as more valuable, alive than dead? How do I prove that's possible? And that's like the mission that I have on my hands at the moment. And that's what keeps me up at night. Thinking about that kind of stuff. Yeah.
[00:36:51] Luke: Uh, you mentioned the fishermen are worried about protecting, uh, you know, fishing and protected waters or going after a species that is, you know, not allowed to be caught.
[00:37:00] Luke: Are there any levels of protection for any species of shark in those waters. And is that something that you could, you know, further ramp up with, you know, um, Marine protected areas, for example, with local
[00:37:11] Madison: government? Yeah. So, um, legislation's not a good way to enforce things here because the fishermen are so bordering the poverty line at times that if you brought in these laws, it would affect so many.
[00:37:23] Madison: Um, so they're, they're the standard species that are protected, but they still get caught fishermen still catch great whites here in Indonesia. Um, so there's, there's definitely that risk that comes with indiscriminate long line fishing, which is what they're doing. Uh, and then of course, this is just the fishery that we we know about.
[00:37:43] Madison: There's so many places. Sharks are landed illegally here in these waters. So it's, it's absolutely something that happens. My fishermen told me about one time that they were fishing and protected waters in a helicopter fired warning shots, either side of their boat. And I've had other Fishman tell fishermen, tell me about.
[00:38:04] Madison: And being in areas where I'm like, that sounds familiar, where you here and you bring up the map and they're like, yeah. And it's Australian waters. Like it's, it's, it's crazy what they're willing to go through to be able to make enough from fishing sharks and the harder it gets, the further they're going to
[00:38:22] Luke: go.
[00:38:22] Luke: Yeah, actually just a little bit of a segue, but speaking of Australia, did you see this thing about, uh, shark nets continuing in Australia and the level of bycatch that's coming from them?
[00:38:31] Madison: Yes. Shark nets. Oh my goodness. That
[00:38:34] Luke: I, this article just popped up where they're, you know, giving the reports of how much bycatch it's, you know, they might be catching 40 sharks and bycatch of 10 times that amount and those 40 sharks are you.
[00:38:47] Luke: Species that are threatened or endangered. And we've got new south Wales and Queensland just going right at it. Shark nets and shark drums, and they're just continuing to kill sharks. It, that's kind of weird that the Indonesian fishermen would be threatened by Australian authorities for fishing in the waters where on our own beaches, we're just going out and just slaughtering these essential creatures.
[00:39:11] Luke: It's that's Insa. What
[00:39:13] Madison: an excellent point, what an excellent point and Ali shark fisherman in Indonesia is trying to feed his family. We're just trying to keep old mate on the surfboard feeling a bit more comfortable because he's too lazy to kind of learn about sharks and what they. Also failed to neglect when they talk about, sometimes they talk proudly about the amount of sharks they catch is how many of them are species that don't even interact with humans that don't even have teeth.
[00:39:36] Madison: And most of the stuff that gets caught in the shark nets has been predated on which means it's actually bringing sharks in closer to the beach. And then there's always this statistic of, oh, there hasn't been an attack. There hasn't been a, there hasn't been a death since the shark nets got put in. So they're obviously working.
[00:39:53] Madison: Been several attacks, just not deaths, because any beach that has a net also has, um, surf life saving. So the paramedic response time is far quicker. So nobody dies of blood loss because they've got that first aid available to them. But there's definitely been attacks on beaches that have nets. So they're ineffective, they're archaic and they're absolutely.
[00:40:14] Luke: Yeah. And for people who are listening and just going, what the heck I thought Australia was this progressive society and in many ways, uh, we are, but this approach towards, uh, protection of people against sharks was, you know, started some number of years ago, but it. The fact that it continues to, um, to be perpetuated is, is crazy to me.
[00:40:37] Luke: So the idea is that sharks might be coming around an area where people are swimming and will put out bated hooks, attached to floats that the sharks will take and then get, you know, Captured and people will go around and check these drum lines occasionally. And if they see that there's a shark that they're allowed to kill, which is also another insane phrase, uh, there's a, a number of species that they're allowed to kill and they'll terminate that animal just for being in the area.
[00:41:05] Luke: Um, which is crazy, not, not to mention that a shark thrashing around on the end of a line will only attract more sharks. You know, you've got one, one bait that's been taken and, you know, you might have three or four other sharks. I mean, we just saw this other article where, you know, great white sharks are basically following each other around, um, just to be opportunistically there during a, a kill or during a, a feed.
[00:41:29] Luke: Um, so we're seeing more and more. While sharks of like great whites, for example, might not necessarily be social. They're certainly they're learning from each other in terms of like hunting ability. So this whole concept that we can, I, I reckon, yeah. I mean the whole concept that we can catch a great white and put it on a hook.
[00:41:46] Luke: And expect other sharks to not come around during that and be in a heightened state of awareness, because you've already got one of your buddies who's, you know, on the end of a line, um, and potentially be a predation event on its own. There's just, there's so many holes in this theory of. Shark nets and drums being a good idea for protection against sharks.
[00:42:07] Luke: That it's it's madness.
[00:42:09] Madison: I might cause a little controversy by saying this as well, but I actually think, please, I think that people in Australia need to be a little scared when they get in the water. And I think that shark nets provide a false sense of security and that's very dangerous. We think this like stupid little net that doesn't even cover the whole beach is gonna protect us from a great white.
[00:42:26] Madison: It's not the only thing that's gonna protect us from a great white is making smart decisions about when and how. We enter the water and how we share this hunting space with an APX predator. And nobody's going to take the responsibility to learn that while they think that these stupid methods from the government are keeping them safe at the beach, but the Australian government doesn't wanna admit that there's actually real danger out there.
[00:42:48] Madison: They just wanna slap up some shark nets and say that that's gonna keep us safe. Yeah. That it's not,
[00:42:52] Luke: I mean, to me putting up shark nets, it. Aside from the fact that they're catching sharks, you know, they're also catching dolphins and turtles and a bunch of fish and everything else. I mean, it's kind of like laying out a smorgasboard for a scavenger feeder to come up and, and explore.
[00:43:06] Luke: I mean, why would you wanna hang a bunch of chum straight outside a public beach and expect sharks swimming by not to be attracted by that? Like, Absolute stupidity. Let's take a sort of global perspective on this. Cause I've heard it offered before as the solution to shark fishing and shark finning, that tourism could be the savior.
[00:43:29] Luke: I don't believe that to be the case. I believe it to be something that is extremely useful in, in certain circumstances, but I, I have trouble wrapping my head around solving the entire global shark fishing trade, um, by. Tourism because it, it seems that the carrying capacity of tourism is less than the demand for, for the species.
[00:43:52] Luke: What do you think?
[00:43:53] Madison: I definitely think that it's a quick fix in some places. But it takes a lot of infrastructure and work to set up fisheries, to be able to profit from tourism around sharks. And since that started happening in certain places around the world, we haven't really stopped and thought about how it's also affecting the oceans.
[00:44:10] Madison: So I think it was, it is like a very quick thing that people rush to without giving it a lot of thought. And in some places it does help, but it is also a temporary thing. And no, I honestly don't think there's going to be much other than really stopping the demand that is going to stop this.
[00:44:26] Luke: Yeah. I'm, I'm happy to hear you say that.
[00:44:28] Luke: Cause it mirrors my thoughts. Exactly. You know, I've, I've worked in shark tourism for well over 20 years and I've, I've seen how a well set up organization can, you know, really benefit an area. It also has its, you know, detriments as well, you know, I've seen it. Um, you know, we're supposed to say that the scientific evidence shows that, uh, tourism does not change the behavior of the shark in the long term.
[00:44:53] Luke: And that is what the data says. It's absolutely certain that in certain areas, sharks are getting very accustomed to provisioning, uh, in some respect. And there's legitimate concerns about that. So, you know, it, it's not the perfect soul for anything. And particularly in areas that are a challenge like you are dealing in.
[00:45:16] Luke: I mean, there's just no way you can roll out commercial services of the, the degree that the, the shark. Tourism, majority of people require, you know, or the, the facilities or hotels or scuba diving or clean air, you know, stuff like that, you know, locations with well set up sharks. Um, that's a huge infrastructure challenge, um, which really needs to be adopted.
[00:45:41] Luke: I, I mean, would it be fair to say an endo, it needs to be adopted at a government level in order to.
[00:45:46] Madison: Yes. And it needs to benefit everybody, not just the select few that can profit from it. And most of the people that profit from the animals being alive here are expats, not the actual community themselves.
[00:45:57] Madison: So it's, it's gotta be done in a very particular way. And it's the first thing people say to me, why don't you just go out there and, and ch sharks and swimmer sharks. And it's like, um, For a number of reasons, but like the main one being they're just gonna turn around and fish, any sharks that I, I bring around.
[00:46:13] Madison: And then the second main one being, why is that something that you need to come and be a part of this? Like, we have the ability to change the world with where we put our money and sometimes that's gonna mean going to see dead sharks instead of going to see live ones. Cause that's gonna have more of an impact.
[00:46:30] Luke: Ah, sad. Isn't it. So, okay. Put yourself 10 years down the line. Are you still in Indo? Have you, uh, shut that market down and you know, there's now a thriving tourist industry.
[00:46:42] Madison: Okay. 10 years from now. Um, My car doesn't break down every second day, cuz I've managed to fix it. I am enemy number. There's a picture of me in every single sharkfin export factory in Indonesia.
[00:46:54] Madison: I'm enemy number one, I've taken all their employees. um, hopefully, hopefully I'm on holiday somewhere else because my fishermen are running their own operat. Their kids are in their second year of university going to do something else. Uh, the fishmen have ownership of all the boats and they're engaging in tourism and I've bought up every single bit of fishing equipment that they own and turned it into really sick jewelry and sold it for a lot of money.
[00:47:21] Madison: And then given that money in the fishermen, that's the goal. The goal is to take this community that has only ever known shark fishing, give them a whole new life and to show the world that people fishing sharks in this part of the world are not evil. They're not villains. they're just family men trying to survive.
[00:47:37] Madison: And if given the opportunity to do something else, they will. Okay. So you've
[00:47:40] Luke: got the entire shark work audience listening to you right now. How do they help you do that?
[00:47:45] Madison: um, come on a trip or just support the project. Keep an eye on the project. We always need certain skill sets and support from people we've been surviving off donations and.
[00:47:56] Madison: This is available for anybody to come see. I want people to come and be a part of this. And most of the people that have joined my trips are still involved in the project. In some way, there will be nothing more rewarding when you get in the water with a tiger shark or a great white and Guadalupe. After, you know, you've put in the effort to go and see what's happening to them around the world and to help make.
[00:48:18] Madison: Difference to the future of sharks, it'll feel so different when you get in the water and see them alive again, because you've been part of something real like that. Um, so I guess I, I don't even, I don't want people's help. I want them to help the fishermen get a better life. And when we stand in between the fishermen and the men that are exploiting them for the shark fins, we save sharks, but we also send a very strong message about who has control over our oceans.
[00:48:42] Madison: The people destroying it, or the people that enjoy.
[00:48:45] Luke: Yeah, well, that's, uh, noble of you to say, but I think the reality is you do need people's help. Yeah. um, so give them a, you know, give them a, you know, after you've listened to this podcast, what do you do? Tell 'em the website to go to tell 'em how to donate, tell 'em how to come on a trip with you.
[00:49:01] Luke: And, um, and if not that, how do they lend their professional or intellectual services to you? Because you've. Big job ahead of you and you're gonna need more than just Mattie. Okay. Yes.
[00:49:12] Madison: Go to project. Hear iu.com. We're on Instagram project. Hear so hear you. Is the Indonesian word for shark? So it's project shark.
[00:49:21] Madison: Didn't put a whole lot of thought into the name, but I didn't think it would actually be successful when I started it, which is the greatest part of this whole story. Um, hit us up on the website or Instagram. You'll be able to book trips. You'll be able to find us, learn more about our crew and get involved somehow.
[00:49:37] Madison: And we absolutely do need everybody's
[00:49:39] Luke: help. Well good on you, Mattie. I'm sure that, uh, that request for help will be well met. And, uh, you know, the shark week community has to be behind you. If we're anything, like we say, what we are, which is that we love sharks because we've got people like Matt out there who is doing the really hard actual grassroots, legit work to change what's happening in a place that's heavily targeted by people who shouldn't be taking those resources outta the ocean and say, thank you for what you're doing.
[00:50:11] Luke: You know, shark tourism has been heralded as this savior of sharks as the solution to shark fishing of a conversion from subsistence fisheries into this new form of sustainable, uh, maintenance for sharks in the world. But that's not the truth. You know, shark tourism can be amazingly effective in certain areas, but having just talked to Mattie, I was so pleased to hear her talk about the actual realities of doing that.
[00:50:42] Luke: The things that she's facing are not small, and I've gotta give her props for the courageousness she's showing in the face of really what she's looking at, which is taking down an industry. You. To actually truly understand what she's trying to do here is pretty mind blowing. You know, she's there largely alone in a country that isn't hers dealing with an industry that is comparable if not actual mafia.
[00:51:14] Luke: And she's saying, Hey, Here's a way to stop this shark finning from an area that's very easy pickings for these merchants to go into, you know, I, I have to give massive pros to Maddie. What she's doing out there is incredibly courageous and incredibly brave. And for anybody who's listening to this podcast who feels the same, I encourage her to support her.
[00:51:33] Luke: However you can. I do agree in the advocacy of what she's doing and I'd love people to see and visit. These locations, just to understand the breadth and scope of what we're dealing with in the world, because it's not all happy out there. There are sharks dying at an unsustainable rate, and it's largely happening in countries where the people are not either educated or financially enabled enough to say no to the practices that are destroying our oceans.
[00:52:00] Luke: So kudos, Maddy, thank you so much for everything you're doing. And I do think that there is a, a place for a larger scale shark tourism in your location, and particularly in Indonesia in general. And I think we, as a community can find a way through to make that the case and protect sharks even more. All we have to do is to show them that dollars can be generated on a sustainable basis at a government and trickle down level.
[00:52:24] Luke: And we.
[00:52:28] Luke: Okay, that's it for today's episode. I want you to stay tuned to this feed. As we continue to cover the Sharkies current topics, we'll talk to top scientists and experts and learn about the latest conservation efforts to keep this amazing animal from extinction. Thank you for listening to shark week the podcast.
[00:52:44] Luke: Be sure to rate us five stars and subscribe for more shark, fun facts until next time I'm Luke tip I'll chat to you soon.