Marine biologist and star of Discovery’s Shark Week documentary Great White Intersection, Dr. Greg Skomal joins Luke Tipple to discuss a surge in great white shark numbers in Cape Cod.
On this episode of Shark Week: The Podcast, Luke Tipple dives into some of the more bizarre shark stories in the news! You’ll learn about hammerheads living in an active underwater volcano, venomous sharks in the River Thames and a Greenland shark that’s been found a long way from home, in the Caribbean! Plus, marine biologist and star of Discovery’s Shark Week documentary Great White Intersection, Dr. Greg Skomal joins Luke to discuss a surge in great white shark numbers in Cape Cod and how climate change is impacting shark migration!
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[00:00:00] Luke: Good day everyone! On today's podcast, I'll tell you about sharks that are living in an active volcano in the Pacific. You'll learn all about the spiny dogfish, a fascinating shark which is actually venomous. And we’ll be joined by marine biologist and star of Discovery’s Shark Week documentary, Great White Intersection, Dr. Greg Skomal.
[00:00:17] Luke: He's gonna discuss shark migration and how climate change is affecting where sharks are appearing. All that and more is coming up on this episode of Shark Week: The Podcast.
[00:00:31] Luke: I'm Luke Tipple, marine biologist and a frequent voice on my favorite things, oceans and sharks. And I'm stoked to bring the magic of Shark Week, right to your ears. You know, sharks have been a big part of my life for over 20 years. They're a critical part of the ocean and a conduit to better understanding life on our planet. So, whether you've never seen Shark Week before or you've been a die hard fan over the 30-plus years it's been around, this podcast is for you.
[00:01:03] Luke: We start today's pod with shark speak. And as usual, we start with a fascinating and simply bizarre headline. Now listen to this one. Massive underwater volcano home to mutant sharks, erupts in the depths of Pacific ocean. Now, this came from the mirror on the 25th of May, 2022. And to me, this is a beautiful headline there's there's drips of pop culture and mutant sharks.
[00:01:27] Luke: I mean, I wanna know all about the mutant sharks. So this really comes from somebody saying, Hey, a shark may have mutated to be somewhere. And then obviously the headlines pump it up and sudden. Mutant sharks are living in the volcanoes, but let's actually go to the facts. So there's this volcano called the Kavachi volcano and it's the most active in the Southwest Pacific ocean.
[00:01:49] Luke: And it erupts frequently, like quite often. And in 2015, there was a scientific expedition to the volcano. And one of the researchers wanted to figure out what was actually happening down deep and see it on video. So he attached a very heavy. To a camera capable of withstanding very deep depths and dropped it straight down to the middle of this crater.
[00:02:11] Luke: Now, remember this is a submerged volcano. It's it's you can be on top of it. No worries at all. Except when it erupts and then you definitely don't wanna there. They dropped this camera down there and they actually saw a whole bunch of life and they were kind of surprised. They found kind of the normal things you'd expect like zoo plankton and larger fish and tra valley and stuff, but they also found stingray.
[00:02:35] Luke: They also found silky sharks and they found a couple of scalloped hammerheads. Now this was. Quite a surprise to the researchers that were there because the water around that area is super heated. It's acidic. There's sulfur in it. It's scolding in places like this is not a nice place to live. I mean, if we were gonna go on vacation, you wouldn't go to the place.
[00:02:56] Luke: That's just gonna burn you and eat you alive. Right. Well, that's where these sharks are choosing at least at times to live. So why would they live there? Well, Yeah. I mean, really that's the answer for anything why, why are sharks anywhere? It comes down to food. So as it turns out, this submerge volcanic environment is extremely productive.
[00:03:18] Luke: It's really mineral rich, and it creates, uh, an environment that's really conducive to coral growth, which then leads to other animals coming along and being symbiotic with the coral. Then. Fish who feed on those little guys and then up and up and up until obviously the sharks turn up to regulate the whole environment.
[00:03:36] Luke: So it totally makes sense. It's actually kind a super heated buffet for the sharks to come and hang out in. But what was kind of interesting and what really led to this piece, the scientists theorized, and it's just a straight theory, complete conjecture, really that the sharks had mutated to be able to withstand this extreme environment.
[00:03:56] Luke: Now we really don't know. What the sharks are capable of doing, cuz we're just learning about them and living in these environments. And it may be that a couple of these sharks have, you know, developed different, uh, tolerances to the area. But it's very likely that we've just discovered a cool new place that sharks like to hang out.
[00:04:15] Luke: And since they cover pretty much every Marine environment on the planet, this really shouldn't come as too much for the surprise, but it is cool to see sharks in a volcano so we can call it a chacan. Now the reason this headline has come up from a 2015 study is because in may of 2022, just this year, Theo erupted again, and a bunch of newspapers started reporting about the Marine life, perhaps being wiped out.
[00:04:40] Luke: And of course, you know, these mutant sharks quote unquote, were being theorized as perhaps being. Knocked out. But I actually think that, you know, sharks and fish are a lot more sensitive to the local environment than people may think. And it's very likely that they were able to sense a volcanic eruption going on.
[00:04:58] Luke: So I'm pretty sure that at least those larger predators had the time to sort of move out and move on. But if they didn't well, that's the circle of life and getting vaporized by a volcano probably wouldn't be that bad, a way to go really. It's over pretty quick. so from mutant sharks that live in a volcano, we're gonna move on to poisonous sharks that are living in the river thas.
[00:05:18] Luke: Now the river thas, you wouldn't normally think about being this hugely productive Marine environment. In fact, back in the 1960s, the river thas. And if you don't know what the river thas is, it runs through London, England, and it was declared biologically dead, just in the 1960s, biologically dead. I mean, you have to be pretty polluted and messed up to.
[00:05:39] Luke: Completely biologically dead. But since then, you know, to their credit, they've done a bunch of cleanup efforts and it's now home to about 115 species of fish and several species of sharks. And it's on recovery. I mean, there's Marine mammals that are living in there now and they have to have food and everything else.
[00:05:55] Luke: So it it's actually becoming, uh, a pretty reasonable place to live. Now, this recent report is something that'll come as a surprise, even to some of you hardened shark experts out there. because did you know that there's such thing as a venomous shark? They don't, they don't just bite. They can actually use venom to, to hunt and as defense now, there's this fish called the spiny dog fish, and it's a very unique shark.
[00:06:22] Luke: It grows to about 39 to 49 inches. The males are smaller than the females as pretty normal. And they're really unique cuz they have this venomous spine on the front of each dorsal fit and they use that to defend themselves from predators. So they do that by kind of like curling themselves up into a little bowl and then.
[00:06:40] Luke: Kick really hard and fling themselves towards the predator. And that spine, when it hits can cause quite a decent amount of damage, I mean, to a human, it had cause a lot of like localized swelling and you'd be, you know, kind of sick and really wouldn't feel very good. I can only imagine what it might feel like for something that was trying to eat it or that had its jaws wrapped around it because that's really probably when it would come into, into play when a, a larger shark comes along and these.
[00:07:09] Luke: Dog fish are just like snacks for a lot of different sharks, you know, bull sharks and hammerheads and all these sharks that we really think about as being sort of top order predators. They love feeding on dog fish. So. That predator coming up, biting down on this Dogfish gets a sting in the top foots mouth and that venom spreads through.
[00:07:29] Luke: And presumably the spiny Dogfish may live to fight another day. I think it's pretty cool. Not only that there's life in the river thas, but there's venomous sharks in the river thas and that's nothing you need to worry about. Just don't go stepping on any sharks in the tha. And why you're swimming in the Tams.
[00:07:47] Luke: I'm not really sure, but that's a whole different story and that's completely up to you. And then from obscure sharks and the thas, we're moving onto a fairly well known shark, but found in a very obscure place. Now this came up just recently and I saw it come up and I was like, whoa, we're really learning stuff about sharks still aren't we, because a Greenland shark was possibly spotted in the Caribbean and.
[00:08:11] Luke: Thousands of miles from where it's supposed to be. Greenland sharks are normally found in the north Atlantic or the Arctic oceans. These are. Big kind of smooth docile, weird looking prehistoric sharks that we see on shark week sometimes. And in the news, you know, they're, they're associated with deep, deep water and super cold water.
[00:08:31] Luke: And in fact, they're the longest live vertebrates on planet earth. They can be 272 years old and actually theoretically, a lot older than that, but that's kind of the number people have settled on 272, cause that's approvable one, but this is a, a fascinating animal and it really shouldn't be in the Caribbean.
[00:08:51] Luke: We think at least, or maybe it should, maybe we're just learning about a new range of this Greenland shark. And to be fair, the researchers weren't able to take DNA from this shark. Now, they, they caught it, they were on a different kind of study. They weren't planning to catch a Greenland shark. They caught it and a big storm was coming in and they had to release it right away so that the shark could actually live and, and continue.
[00:09:13] Luke: And so the boat could get out of the storm as way. So they weren't able to take DNA from it. So they're not positive that it. A Greenland shark. They theorize that it could actually even be a Greenland shark hybrid with another species of sleeper shark, cuz there's, there's several sleeper sharks around there.
[00:09:31] Luke: It's also just as plausible that a Greenland shark loves to live in the super deep waters off of what is Glovers reef, which is where they found it. And I think that's amazing, but not that surprising. It's super deep, it's super dark and cold. The actual reef shelf there drops away down to around 10,000 feet.
[00:09:49] Luke: So what lies be. Presumably, maybe we'll never, ever find out, but it's so cool learning about these new sharks popping up around the place and that'll kind of move us onto our next topic, cuz we're gonna learn all about why sharks are in places that we think they're not supposed to be coming up next on big impact.
[00:10:22] Luke: So in this episode, I'm delighted to welcome a very special guest. We have shark and Marine biologist, Dr. Greg Skomal, joining us. Welcome to the show, mate. Hi, Luke. Nice to see you again. Same. So we've been talking a lot about sharks being in places where they're perhaps not quote unquote, supposed to be, and you know, the human interaction with that and our fascination with it.
[00:10:43] Luke: So, Greg, what got you into sharks? Why do you have such a passion?
[00:10:46] Greg: Well, Luke, I gotta tell you I'm the little kid that loves sharks that never grew up really. I'm fascinated by each and every one of 'em. They just excite me and I've got this little kid still trapped inside of me that every time I see a shark, no matter what species I just.
[00:11:02] Greg: Go crazy. You know, I, I just can't
[00:11:04] Luke: outgrow it before we dive right in. Can you give our listeners just kind of a background on your expertise and your training and, and how you can speak to this topic uniquely? Well, yeah,
[00:11:15] Greg: Luke, I've been, um, studying sharks as you know, for, for several decades. And, uh, most of my work has been focused in the Northeastern us on a variety of species, you know, ranging from blues sharks to make.
[00:11:30] Greg: Threshers and now we're focused quite heavily on, on white sharks off the coast of, of Massachusetts. And so I've got a, a bit of historical perspective because I'm an old guy and I've been around a while. Um, and I'm particularly interested in, in movement ecology as well as natural history and physiology.
[00:11:48] Greg: So, um, I guess with my history, I I've, I can give a perspective of, uh, of what we've been seeing in recent years relative to, uh, to what I experienced as a younger
[00:11:58] Luke: scientist, uh, explain movement, ecology to us. Sure. That's
[00:12:03] Greg: uh, that's having a, a good understanding of, of what these sharks are doing in the three dimensional.
[00:12:08] Greg: Face of their environment, you know, the ocean and how it's related to the oceanography, uh, of, of their, of their habitat, um, how their physiology interacts with that habitat. And basically where do they go in time and space.
[00:12:23] Luke: Now on shark week, this year, you were heavily featured in documentary is called great white intersection.
[00:12:27] Luke: And. Revolved around kind of the more well tragic interference of human and shark interaction. Um, and it is an area where we are seeing people talk about there being more sharks around and having questions about why those sharks are around. What is sort of the history behind this, and particularly in your area where this incident occurred.
[00:12:51] Luke: Tell us about the documentary, tell us about, you know, Why people are so concerned with great whites popping up in greater numbers. Yeah,
[00:12:59] Greg: absolutely. The, um, you know, the documentary highlights, uh, the, the reestablishment of, of white sharks in our near coastal areas, um, around Massachusetts and specifically off the coast of Cape Cod, which has become a, a major, uh, Tourist based economy O over the course of last several decades.
[00:13:19] Greg: And, and so what we've seen is a shift in the distribution of white sharks in response to the growing presence of seals in that area, and the complexity associated with the reestablishment of a, of a, really a, a natural ecosystem. And, um, and what happens when. Predator prey relationship unfolds in an area where people are recreating.
[00:13:43] Greg: And I believe the show, uh, um, culminates in, in the death of a boogie border, uh, in 2018 and, uh, and highlights, you know, what we're going through here, not only as Marine scientists, but as the swimming public and, uh, beach managers, public safety officials. And, uh, and so. Uh, that's happening in not only here, but in other parts of the world, as we reestablish, you know, shark populations, uh, after years of O over exploitation.
[00:14:13] Greg: And while we're, we're extremely excited about the, you know, the, the healthy ecosystem that has been reestablished. We also are very sensitive to the fact that this is an area where, uh, this relationship is overlapping with humans.
[00:14:27] Luke: Yeah. And as you said, the documentary has a tragic occurrence. I mean, this is, we should say for all of our listeners, you know, shark attacks are rare as much as we hear about them a lot, because they are a sensational thing to talk about both in the sense of, you know, it kind of blowing our minds a little bit with the idea of going into the water and being in this.
[00:14:47] Luke: Different ecosystem where we could perhaps be maybe not necessarily on the menu, but at least interacting with things that are on their menu and getting better occasionally. And yeah, it does turn out tragically. Occasionally. That's what happens when you've got a, sometimes 16 plus foot animal, that's got a couple thousand pounds behind it and a whole bunch of teeth and it takes a test bite of someone and we are pretty fragile compared to that formidable arsenal coming towards us.
[00:15:14] Luke: But, but it is rare, but it. It's sensationalized when it does, and probably for good reason, people are concerned, but Greg, you, you said something a few times there about the, the reestablishment of ecosystem. And I think that that's a really important note because people start thinking about. Hey, there's just more sharks and that's kind of where they immediately go to, but can you kind of define what that area has gone through in terms of needing the ecosystem to be reestablished?
[00:15:42] Luke: Cuz it's not just sharks, it's the other animals that have moved back as well. That's exactly
[00:15:46] Greg: right, Luke, the, um, we, we really view this from an ecological point of view as a conservation success story. Um, looking historically at the region, you know, We know that seal populations were driven to the brink of extinction off the Northeastern us.
[00:16:04] Greg: And so, you know, 50 years ago, you'd be hard pressed to find a seal off the Northeastern us
[00:16:10] Luke: in Canada. So what was the threat to seals to start with? Was it humans hunting them? Absolutely.
[00:16:15] Greg: Yes. Uh, over the course of the last century, we hunted them at such a high level that we, we drove their populations very,
[00:16:24] Luke: very, very low.
[00:16:25] Luke: What were people hunting them for off of Cape Cod
[00:16:27] Greg: simply to eliminate them? Um, we viewed them as competition. Uh, with our fisheries local fisheries, and we view them also as animals that were, you know, they smelled and they, they polluted our waters. And so we simply hunted them. Uh, we put bounties on seals here in the us and parts of Canada to remove them, to remove our competition.
[00:16:49] Greg: Um, in 1972, we passed the Marine mammal protection act. And with that, we afforded those species, including seals, sea lions, whales, the highest level of protection over the course of the last 50 years, we have seen those populations gradually come back to the point now where we have healthy seal populations off to the Northeastern us.
[00:17:13] Greg: And when you get that, you're going to attract. Predators that feed on seals and that predator is the white shark. And so we're also, you know, prohibiting the retention of white sharks here in the us and have been doing that off the Eastern seaboard since 1997. So the white shark population, another.
[00:17:31] Greg: Population that was hit par hard by commercial and recreational fishing here historically that is also responding to protection. So we have a growing white shark population in, in essence, a rebounding white shark population. You know, co-occurring with a growing seal population. Well, the white sharks are gonna go where the seals are and now that's occurring.
[00:17:53] Greg: The the, the shallow coastline of the, uh, outer Cape, um, here in Massachusetts. And as a result, you know, we've got this natural historical predator, prey relationship coming back as we reestablish this, this healthy ecosystem. But unfortunately, it's coming back in an area where people now are recreating and that's where we get these unfortunate, albeit rare negative interactions between sharks and people.
[00:18:20] Greg: But the bottom line is you. People have been complaining in recent years about the growing presence of seals. There's too many seals. There's too many seals. Well, the natural predator of these seals is the white shark and now the white shark is here. So my argument is, you know, let's let it to handle the, the, and call the seal population naturally.
[00:18:39] Greg: And, uh, and that's exactly what's happening now,
[00:18:42] Luke: going to the extreme of what some people's response might be. We've talked on this show before about, um, localized culling and how it's really not doing anything except damaging a local environment. But I'd love to hear from you with your expertise, what you'd say to somebody who says, you know, let's just go out and pull all the, the white sharks out of this area.
[00:19:04] Luke: The rest of 'em be fine, but they'll stay away from this
[00:19:06] Greg: area. Well, I think it's interesting. We, we, we believe we. Pretty good Sable bulk of the population that moves through our area. I kind of think of it as the first, um, fast food joint that they hit on their way north as they move to the Gulf of Maine.
[00:19:22] Greg: Um, so we get quite a few individuals here, but you know, the one thing I like to do with folks that say that Luke is, is I don't mind having the conversation because I want them to walk through it with. Logistically and how they go from, uh, just an idea of let's remove the sharks to actually making that happen.
[00:19:42] Greg: And then how they explain why they're doing that to their children and grandchildren. And, and I find that they usually hit a dead end fairly quickly because logistically, you know, removing. A segment of the population of, of any animal is not easy to do unless you're trying to target it for, for some kind of commercial fishery.
[00:20:02] Greg: And so, um, I don't mind having that conversation and generally I get them thinking that perhaps from a logistical and feasible point of view, This isn't going to work and has been demonstrated historically, you know, shark culling does not work and a knee jerk reaction, like thinking you're going to remove that problem animal and solve the issue is, uh, is certainly not a solution.
[00:20:25] Greg: A good solution. You remove these. Top predators, these, these middle level predators, and you're going to disrupt the, the equilibrium of the ecosystem. And at the same time, of course, we started overfishing many of our, our fish species, um, which wasn't good for the ecosystem. So we're finally getting to a point where we're recognizing the disruption we called caused historically not.
[00:20:49] Greg: Seals and sharks, but to these other fish species, and we've mandated that we have to start to restore them to sustainable levels. And we're starting to do that now here in the us, you know, and we're doing it with not only with white sharks and we're and seals, but we're doing it with a variety of. Fish species and other shark species, you know, so we're, you know, and, and of course, this is a great segue into what we're seeing here off the Northeastern us with other fish, other shark populations as not only, uh, they come back to levels, uh, that are sustainable, but also they expand their distribution with warming water temperatures.
[00:21:27] Luke: Now you've been in that area and worked in that area for probably long enough to remember the, you know, the impacts maybe, you know, before and after, you know, jaws came out and people started really paying attention to sharks, but was it really a movie that caused people to go out and. Kill all these sharks or was it kind of a, a localized thing as well?
[00:21:46] Luke: Like it was with the seals, like just removal of competition?
[00:21:49] Greg: Well, it was, you know, it's a bit of a combination, but you know, the movie, if you look at the movie and you look at the, the actual causes and the. Declines of shark populations here on the Eastern seaboard of the us, and frankly, globally, that was not necessarily driven by the movie.
[00:22:06] Greg: I think Peter Benchley was awfully hard on himself. Quite frankly, what happened is actually in the eighties and nineties is we, we started developing, uh, Big markets for sharks. And, and we had the explosion in the fin trade that occurred, you know, in the far east. And so as a result, once you start putting a price tag on any species, any natural resource, you're gonna drive up effort and you're gonna, you're gonna diminish that resource in the case of sharks quite rapidly.
[00:22:33] Greg: And that's, what's. Exactly what happened in the us. Yeah. We had a growth in the recreational fishing for sharks that occurred in the seventies as a result of the film and some of that spilled into the eighties, but it was really the commercialization of, of, uh, fishing fleets to target sharks that led to the demise of, of many shark species here in the us.
[00:22:55] Greg: So it's
[00:22:55] Luke: your scientific opinion that. While it wasn't necessarily great PR for the sharks and it certainly caused some localized effects with, you know, culling of sharks, but jaws wasn't specifically to blame for the demise of white sharks off of Cape Cod.
[00:23:11] Greg: No, I don't believe it was at all. Yes. A few were targeted and if few were killed, um, but, uh, it was the massive expansion of commercial fishing for sharks and other highly migratory species that led to the demise of, of, uh, of those.
[00:23:27] Luke: Uh, can you explain to people how a shark might decide to migrate, whether it be by species or just in
[00:23:32] Greg: general, you know, with over 500 species and each one is, is really quite distinctive. You know, they have different behavioral patterns, different behavioral traits and different timing when it comes to migration.
[00:23:43] Greg: But if we were to generalize, And, and we do this with a lot of fish species, a lot of migratory animals here on the Eastern seaboard of the us. You get this general movement as water temperatures warm in the, in the mid to late spring, into the summer. A lot of different Marine animals, including sharks will migrate north from Southern areas or offshore habitat into new England waters.
[00:24:07] Greg: And generally in the case of white shark, for, for example, they'll trickle in. As early as late may and through June, but July is when it really ramps up in this particular year, 2022, really wasn't until mid-July that we started seeing the greatest numbers of, of white sharks and their, their distribution.
[00:24:28] Greg: Their abundance will peak as we get into August, September, and October. And that's typical of most. Species here in Northern latitudes off the Eastern seaboard. You know, so the Gulf of Maine will fill up with a variety of fish species, including white sharks and blue sharks, a number of different animals.
[00:24:46] Greg: Um, and then as things cool off in, uh, in November, and we'll see this happen quite dramatically, the Gulf of Maine and the coastal new England will drain you know, of these species as they move. Very rapidly south as we get those northerly winds and water, temperatures begin to plummet. And generally by mid to late December, many of those animals have left new England, including white sharks.
[00:25:14] Greg: Um, for, for. Areas that are warmer. And, uh, so everything that's happening is mitigated by water temperature. You know, that that's what drives this, uh, really dynamic migration north and south. Uh, one of the things we're beginning to look at as water temperatures rise here off the Northeastern, us and F.
[00:25:33] Greg: Faster pace than almost anywhere else in the world, um, is how that might be changing our local fauna, particularly sharks. You know, we're starting to see a variety of, of tropical subtropical species move up here to new England that we don't typically see, you know, from smooth hammerhead. To black hip sharks and even the occasional bull shark off the coast of long island.
[00:25:56] Greg: And that's been quite interesting to, to watch. And, and I'm also particularly concerned to see how it might change, uh, not necessarily the distribution of white sharks because we know historically they go as far north as Canada, but perhaps the timing of their migration, you know, will they arrive earlier?
[00:26:13] Greg: Will they stay later? You know, those kinds of, of. Uh, things might happen in the case of the white shark. So we're paying attention to that as, as water temperatures, uh, start to move up, uh, slowly on annual.
[00:26:27] Luke: We've heard about new sharks turning up in your area. Like what's changing in terms of migratory patterns, cuz this really leads to broader management.
[00:26:34] Luke: Doesn't it it's understanding what's gonna happen in the next few years that we need to start thinking about like, do we need Marine protected areas in different places? Do we need to, you know, start thinking of. Different species diversification in different areas. Like where are the sharks going?
[00:26:49] Greg: I think the, the most conspicuous story over the course of the last month and a good example of how shark distribution might be shifting to some extent, um, is, you know, long island, the occurrence of sharks off the coast of long island, long island of course, is New York.
[00:27:04] Greg: New York has a lot of media and it gets a lot of media attention. And so, you know, there've been a number of bites. I believe the number is somewhere around five or. You know, shark bites on minor shark bites on people, but even minor shark bites can be serious to some extent, um, off the coast of long island, that's extremely unusual.
[00:27:23] Greg: You know, some of them been attributed to sand tigers. We know sand tigers sharks historically occur off long island. And as a result, um, the, of protections put in place in the late nineties, that population is also rebounding and they. very close to shore. Um, but there are other shark species that are starting to turn up in our Northern latitudes here in the summertime, including, uh, as I mentioned, black tip sharks, um, in addition to, um, smooth hammerhead sharks and, uh, and, and certainly black tips have been implicated in, in minor bites on people off the coast of Florida.
[00:27:59] Greg: And so, you know, with this, these changing, you know, Species composition. There's all kinds of repercussions to the ecosystem, um, in terms of what they will be feeding on and how that trickles down through the ecosystem. And so it's certainly something worth studying and trying to get a better handle on as these animals come to areas where they previously have not existed.
[00:28:21] Greg: So
[00:28:21] Luke: how do you look at this almost newly established migration pattern for specific species and perhaps. Expanded migratory presence of white sharks, whatever is it anomalistic or are we looking at new normals for the foreseeable future? You know,
[00:28:39] Greg: we've got historical data on the presence of these animals.
[00:28:42] Greg: We know where they have. Been historically. And we compare our current tagging tech data coming from a variety of technologies. And we collaborate with an, a number of different research groups. We've established in the case of the white shark, you know, the new England white shark research consortium, which includes scientists and state officials from Rhode Island all the way to Canada.
[00:29:04] Greg: So we're all using similar technologies and sharing data. To see how these, this migration might be changing, not only in response to the growing seal population, um, and the shift closer to shore, but in response to climate change,
[00:29:20] Luke: you talk a lot about sampling and about figuring out where the sharks are and studying their movement, patterns and stuff.
[00:29:26] Luke: What are you doing? And what is like, what does it look like in 10 years time or 20 years time? How much better do we get at this science?
[00:29:33] Greg: Uh, you know, I've been doing this now, Luke almost 40 years. And I've gone from being in, you know, at the university of Rhode Island, right? W not having anything like a cell phone or a laptop, or even a desktop computer okay.
[00:29:48] Greg: So over the course of my career, I've seen the evolution of technology. It's been stunning to me, you know, to the point where now we're, we're strapping to computers, to animals and seeing them go to places, we never dreamed, they went. And so I can only imagine over the next 10 to 20 or 30 years, we're gonna see this continued expansion in, into new technologies, in the improvement of current technologies and sensor technologies to the point where, you know, it's gonna blow my mind even more.
[00:30:21] Greg: So if I'm alive and so I'm pretty excited about what we're, I mean, we're using. A lot of scientists now are now using, you know, fine scale behavioral tags with camera technology linked to 'em, you know, that didn't exist really 10 years ago. And so
[00:30:37] Luke: explain, explain what that is and how you actually attach it to the animals.
[00:30:41] Greg: You know, that that's a, that's a, that's a, a tag that has a variety of. Sensors built into it from environmental sensors, like water temperature and the depth of the animal to, uh, movement sensors that tell you what that shark is doing in three dimensional space every second. So we can tell if it's going right left up down, accelerating or slowing down integrated with that is the camera system that allows, allows you to.
[00:31:08] Greg: Get direct observations of what that animal's doing. So you can correlate it with the data being collected by the tag. And you only put these tags out for a few days, but allow us allows us to really get high resolution. Look at what these sharks are doing over really, really. Find scales, you know, really studying behavior without having to follow the shark.
[00:31:31] Greg: Um, and so these are all integrated into a tag package that are E either. Um, we use a, a tethered system where we use a small intramuscular dart placed at the base of the Dorsen using a, a traditional tagging technique. And that tag is tethered and, and held by the shark for. A few days before it releases and floats to the surface.
[00:31:50] Greg: Other researchers capture the shark and actually strap that tag, uh, through a clamp system onto the DORS will fin. So there's a number of different packages that are used, but they're opening amazing doors into, into studying behavior without having to keep a shark in captivity, which of course gives you abnormal behavior.
[00:32:07] Greg: And so. I'm loving it. I'm, I mean, I'm loving the new technology and I'm excited about what the next 10 years is gonna bring.
[00:32:14] Luke: So from the results what's blowing your mind these days, what are you seeing? That's like, I never thought that had happen. well,
[00:32:20] Greg: I think all of us that are using this technology are finding out that these animals are pretty boring.
[00:32:27] Greg: you know, boy, all they do is swim all day. You know, they don't have a job, they don't have to go to, you know, do anything like. They, uh, they spend a lot of time, you know, and we're, of course, we're using these now on white sharks and nearshore coastal environments to get a sense of how often white sharks are, are attempting to feed on seals, you know, and, you know, although we've deployed these tags, you know, almost, you know, 30 times we're finding out that, you know, they're not spending all their time trying to eat seals, you know, they're quite calm and.
[00:32:58] Greg: They're they're ambush predators that really spend most of their time moving fairly slowly and waiting for those opportunities when the seals present themselves and they can ambush them. And so, you know, that's been really fun to see. They will check out objects floating at the surface, like a lobster buoy.
[00:33:15] Greg: Um, they will snap up small. Like dog fish when they're not attempting to kill seals and we've seen that behavior, um, and we've seen them rush at seals, you know, every, every couple of days. And so that's, and, and they don't always succeed, you know, and that's, what's interesting. They strike out quite a bit.
[00:33:33] Greg: Um, so, you know, they're opening, it's opening new doors into our ability to observe, uh, really cool
[00:33:39] Luke: behavior. Do you think people would be surprised to learn just how often they're in the presence of fairly large? Predatory shocks.
[00:33:47] Greg: Yes. And I think drone technology, um, uh, has really opened, uh, those windows quite a bit.
[00:33:54] Greg: And the public, you know, Steve Jere down in, in Florida does this, he, uh, he he's studying the, those big, you know, black tip shark aggregations, and there's people right on the beach there. And here you have a thousand or so. You know, within throwing distance from these folks. And so drone technology, spotter pilots, you know, they're all taking pictures, showing this to people and people are going, oh my God, these sharks are there.
[00:34:18] Greg: I'm not going in the water. And I say, wait a minute. They've always been there and you've always been in the water. So why stop? You know, it's these, these, these, these predators are. Um, not targeting people. Remember that, right?
[00:34:32] Luke: Yeah. It, it, it seems to be by and large that it's people who happen to be in the way of, like you say, a large group of black tip sharks.
[00:34:41] Luke: If there's a feeding event going on, somebody wades into that or tries to fish it or whatever, they're putting themselves in the food chain or. You know, like our, a guy in 2018 who was unfortunately just wrong place, wrong time to a white shark that was sampling. As you say, you know, they'll bite a lobster buoy just to see what it is, you know, they'll, they'll bite the leg of a bodyboard or surfer to see what it is.
[00:35:03] Luke: We're not. On their menu per se, but adding onto that, what are the local communities feeling about having the more abundant shark species and presence in the area in Cape Cod?
[00:35:14] Greg: Now they've been living with the presence of white sharks for about a decade or so. Um, many people have changed their personal behavior when it comes to utilizing, uh, nearshore areas, you know, coastal areas, a lot of folks when we're out on the water, we're looking at.
[00:35:31] Greg: Thousands of people who go to the beach every day. And we see that most of them don't go in beyond their waste. They're not willing to take any risk, although that risk is quite low and we fully understand that that's a personal decision. Each person makes, when they go in the water, there are other groups surfers in particular, you know, they don't change their behavior all that much because to catch a wave, they gotta go.
[00:35:54] Greg: Over their waste. And so they've accepted the risk, which they acknowledge is quite low. And so people are adapting and there's a lot of personal decisions that are made and, and public safety officials have really pushed hard to educate the public, to get the data we're collecting the information we're collecting as scientists out to the public.
[00:36:14] Greg: You and I both know Luke that. The more, the public knows about these animals, the more, you know, the better decisions they're going to make and the more they're going to, you know, embrace them and understand them and want to conserve.
[00:36:26] Luke: Yeah. Uh, it's one of those tough things where, you know, education really is key, but the problem is the answer generally for a lot of people will lead towards the same end, which is well, it's their environment and you shouldn't go into it if you don't wanna accept risk.
[00:36:42] Luke: And for people who are on vacation from Wisconsin or something, that's not the risk that they paid to come. Take, you know, they want to go swimming and they want to enjoy the beach and stuff. So I, I can understand people, especially with us, us humans, with our limited time and our limited vacation schedules and stuff thinking, well, I don't want to think about the rest of the world.
[00:37:01] Luke: I don't wanna think about sharks. I wanna think about having a beach vacation with my family and staying safe. So I, I get it. But. It's one of those challenging things where there just really is no good answer, except a bad answer sometimes. And , I, I'm kind of a little tired of being apologist about it because it's, it's their environment.
[00:37:21] Luke: And as you say, it's just kind of returning to normal. So to tag onto that thought, I mean, Is this a return to norm and with the data you've got over all these years, can you model out if this is gonna be an increasing thing, should people be more and more and more aware the, are the waters gonna get warmer?
[00:37:38] Luke: Are they gonna be double the number of white sharks in 10 years? You know, are we seeing something that's predictable here or just getting back to normal? It,
[00:37:48] Greg: it is a great question. And, and we've really been focused, uh, on a variety of. Aspects of, of white shark biology, including getting a handle on their numbers.
[00:37:58] Greg: Um, I've got a student, Megan Winton who is, um, uh, doing a phenomenal job at modeling what this population is doing. Um, we know there has been a dramatic increase over the last decade. To two decades. Um, so over a broader scale, we know there's been a big increase. What we're trying to get a handle on is how it's changing from year to year.
[00:38:20] Greg: We see new sharks. We, you know, we have cataloged well over 500 individual white sharks that have visited Cape Cod over the last decade. Um, they're not here all the time together. You know, they trickle in, they trickle out, we recruit new sharks, every. We catalog them. We document who they are and other sharks simply don't come back for a few years.
[00:38:42] Greg: And so the number seems to be somewhat stable from year to year to year over the course of the last couple of years. Now, what remains to be seen is how climate change affects that. And most importantly, how it changes the distribution of their prey, the gray. You know, gray seals wear a fur coat and, uh, have a thick blubber layer.
[00:39:02] Greg: So how are they going to behave relative to climate change? Will they shift their distribution north? Which of course will draw the sharks to those areas. And we might actually see numbers go down over time as climate change impacts Cape Cod. It'll be interesting to see. So we've got, we've got our eyes on it, we're paying attention.
[00:39:22] Greg: And, uh, and as I said, other researchers are doing the
[00:39:25] Luke: same. What type of questions are people in the community coming to you with?
[00:39:28] Greg: Well, as you can imagine, we have a full spectrum of opinions, right? So as you do with any case, so you have the extremes, right? You have the folks who, who think we need to eradicate the sharks and eradicate the seals, and then you have the other, the other extreme where people should never go in the.
[00:39:46] Greg: The sharks and hat, you know, habitat. And, and then the bulk of the population, though, I believe on Cape Cod is, is somewhere in the middle, which is typical, right? You've got this bell shaped curve and opinions and, you know, sure. There are folks whose livelihoods depend on, you know, renting surfboards, selling surfboards, you know, selling.
[00:40:05] Greg: Renting kayaks and, and they're going, their businesses might be suffering to some extent or they're shifting their, their, their geographic location to parts of Cape Cod, where the sharks are not so, uh, prevalent. Um, and then you've got folks who run ho restaurants and hotels, and I'll tell you right now, I traveled to the Cape many times per week to do our research.
[00:40:26] Greg: And the traffic is just as bad as it ever. And those, those restaurants and hotels are booked solid. So I don't think they're feeling the impacts economically. And if they're not feeling those impacts, then they're not having a problem with those sharks. And then we have the eco tour of business, which you now number probably somewhere around a dozen who are taking people out to actually see white sharks.
[00:40:49] Greg: And, and those are booming right now. The public safety officials, you mentioned they're on edge. They're nervous. You know, the last thing they. Somebody to be hurt by one of these animals at their beaches. But at the same time, they're, they're logical people and they understand that this is not something that's going to change or be changed overnight.
[00:41:11] Greg: You know, they see this as the new norm. They wanna know where it's going. And unfortunately, you know, that the, the wheels of science turned fairly slowly and we can't tell them where it's going yet. Um, but we're hoping to over time, give 'em a sense of what direction we're going in and whether what they can anticipate seeing, you know, five years from now, or 10 years from now.
[00:41:33] Luke: Now what actually happens when there is that negative. Shark human interaction. You know, there's a bite and, you know, somebody could unfortunately pass away or get grievously injured, but, or just get a little nip and walk away and have a cool scar. But what happens locally? When that interaction occurs because we see it in the news and it becomes all sensational, but locally on the ground, what do people
[00:41:57] Greg: do?
[00:41:57] Greg: Well, the, the instant reaction is it's interesting, cuz I've seen when they, when these interactions started happening in 2012, we had a swimmer bit and the general reaction from the folks on the beach were well, what was the guy doing out there? There was a tendency to blame the. You know, he made a poor decision.
[00:42:19] Greg: He shouldn't been out there there's signage on the beach that says there's sharks there. Um, but as time went on and we had the fatality in 2018, there was certainly multiple reactions that we looked. We obviously can't blame the victim. The victim, you know, was out just recreating, having a good time and, um, We've gotta do something about it.
[00:42:42] Greg: So what are our choices? You know, can we remove the sharks? Can we remove the seals? Can we have deterrents? Can we have early warning detection systems? And so each of the towns and the beach managers got together and started to investigate, what, what can we do? To solve this problem perceived problem.
[00:43:03] Greg: And, um, then the average person on the street, you know, they, they won't go in the water for a while. Right. Um, and, uh, they'll be confused and they won't necessarily know what to do. And, and neither will we, right. because you know, our, our. What we've been saying is let, let us study this animal to figure out when, where, and how this happens and how we can perhaps predict where it could happen, but that's not an easy task to
[00:43:27] Luke: do.
[00:43:27] Luke: Yeah. I, what is the, you say it's not an easy task and none of this has an easy answer. So what's the hard answer. What's the Greg Skomal endorse strategy to managing human and shark interaction in the presence of growing shark populations.
[00:43:43] Greg: Well, mine has been, you know, Ever since the first bite in 2012, I, I I've been saying that there's no E there is no easy solution and we're not gonna modify the, the behavior of these sharks and we're not gonna modify the behavior of these seals.
[00:43:59] Greg: The only thing we can do now, Is modify our own behavior, you know, and, and that goes back to what is your per you know, what is, what level of risk are you personally willing to accept? You know, and I always remind people that we are terrestrial animals. We are animals that evolved on land. So we're not strong in the water to begin with.
[00:44:20] Greg: So we should know our own personal strengths in the water. We know. More people have drowned because of rip tides and currents off Cape Cod than have ever been bitten by sharks. And that is a concern, right? From the get go, you know, know your own strengths in the water and know your own level of risk that you're willing to accept.
[00:44:39] Greg: And that's been, that's been my advice all along because we're not gonna change the behavior of these animals. They're doing what they've been programmed to do over millions of years of evolution. And we're not gonna stop.
[00:44:49] Luke: So do you think that it's in a very simplistic way? If we were to explain this to people, like why sharks are coming into areas where they, perhaps people think they shouldn't be is.
[00:45:01] Luke: Water temperature. Is it food? And more importantly, is there something that we can do in our actions that might help stabilize not necessarily going out and killing a bunch of sharks, but help stabilize the, you know, the, the further progression of those species further north or south or whatever it might be.
[00:45:17] Luke: So if they're following warm water, you know, do we pay more attention to our. Carbon use or whatever, to be able to offset that and help cool things down. So the sharks don't move with the warm water. I know that's very simplistic to a complex question, but what do people do if they're sitting at home wanna help?
[00:45:33] Greg: Well, you know, certainly pay attention to what's happening out there. And you know, our carbon personal carbon footprints are something we should be managing to begin with. Um, you know, I think that what's happening off our coast in terms of, uh, changes in, in fish distribution, including. Is is something that's happening and it's, and I don't think we're gonna necessarily stop that in the near term.
[00:45:54] Greg: Um, food and temperature drive the presence of these animals. You know, if their habitat expands to the north, as in the case of black tip sharks, they're going to go north, you know, as long as there's something there that. That, you know, certainly if the temperature is suitable, the habitat is suitable and there's something for them to feed on.
[00:46:14] Greg: You know, they're going to occur more to the north and that's exactly what's happening. Um, as far as folks paying attention to that, you know, certainly if you're at those beaches, anywhere in these Northern areas, realize you, these animals, these sharks like to feed close to shore because our coastal areas tend to be our most productive.
[00:46:33] Greg: They draw a lot of. Different smaller fish species upon which these sharks feed. And so pay attention to that. If you're nervous about the presence of more sharks off for off long island, for example, look for birds, feeding, look for other fish species in the area. And perhaps don't go into where these sharks might be feeding, but it all boils down to if, if climate change is driving, you know, these tropical species moving farther north, and we think that.
[00:47:01] Greg: Indeed happening. And then it, then it boils down to our own personal decisions regarding, you know, our carbon
[00:47:07] Luke: footprints. Yeah. And when do we figure that out? When, when is there the penultimate decision that yes, it is global warming. This is a new change, and we're looking at this expanded cycle and everyone just needs to kind of get used to it.
[00:47:20] Luke: Are we at that point?
[00:47:21] Greg: Well, I think we are in, you know, for some species, we certainly know that the Gulf of Maine is warming at a much higher rate than other parts, most other parts of the world. So, you know, I think it's safe to say that that is, that is driven by climate change, you know, and we have yet to fully understand what that's going to do.
[00:47:39] Greg: It's nice to be able to project forward with models, but we all know that forward projections of models. Uh, tend to fall apart when it comes to, um, uh, you know, going too far into the future. And so we need to do better monitoring of the presence of these animals. We need to do additional tagging obviously, and work collaboratively with multiple groups, you know, because now I'm, you know, I find myself working with more and more folks down in Florida because their species are coming to.
[00:48:09] Greg: Right. And so, you know, paying attention is really what it's all about. Not only scientists, but the general public in terms of, of how things are changing.
[00:48:18] Luke: You work with white sharks a lot, but is it that species that you that's your favorite? Yeah.
[00:48:22] Greg: Right now, white sharks are my favorite, but I gotta tell you I'm pretty fickle.
[00:48:25] Greg: You know, I was down in, um, St. Croix in the Virgin islands, tagging tiger sharks a couple of months ago. And I said to myself, oh my God, these are my favorite sharks. And, and soon I'll be tagging another species someplace else. And I'll go, boy, this is my favorite shark. But right now I'm focused on the lights.
[00:48:41] Greg: So I'm pretty, uh, I'm pretty, uh, enamored by them. We've had a.
[00:48:45] Luke: Quite a long career working with sharks in general, but what do you say to the, the next generation of Marine biologists who are up and coming? You know, people who contact you and say, wow, how can I do what you do? Is there a place for them in the future?
[00:48:58] Luke: And, and what should they be
[00:48:58] Greg: doing? Well, there is absolutely a place for them in the future. You know, I'm, I'm getting old, , I'm not gonna live forever. And a lot of my cohort in the shark science world is, you know, getting to this point where we're gonna retire eventually. And we're gonna watch you guys on TV.
[00:49:16] Greg: Um, so my advice is. Study hard, obviously. Um, one of the things that really worked for me was volunteering. I volunteered at a laboratory, you know, get lots of different experiences, read the scientific literature. You know, we all love shark week. We all watch shark week, but also read the scientific literature to become familiar with.
[00:49:36] Greg: The shark biology and the various tools that are used to study sharks, and one aspect of shark biology, you in particular want, you know, chase your dream. That's what I did. And that's what you did. And, and we got there, you
[00:49:48] Luke: know? Yeah. I always tell people get really good on boats. Like don't expect to be a, a shark scientist and not know.
[00:49:56] Luke: How to tie a Bowen or or how to manage yourself on a deck. Like don't come on my boat and be in my way, like be a productive member of that. Cuz you think about it. You know, people are really asking to be part of what, three to maybe at the most eight people that are going out to achieve a scientific goal.
[00:50:16] Luke: You know, you're going out on that boat. You're in tight quarters. You're in each other's way. You're dealing with big animals. Bigger teeth and all that kind of thing. I'm like, dude, just know your ports and star, but at a bare minimum, but then also become a good diver, become a good fisherman, learn about boating stuff and just don't be in the way so that you can be productive once you've figured out what your passion is, what you actually wanna study.
[00:50:38] Luke: And with that many sharks and occasionally the good weather should we expect to see you on shark week next year? Are you working on anything? Well, right now
[00:50:45] Greg: we, we've got a couple of, uh, of. Of ideas out there. I don't believe, uh, they've been green lit yet, but, uh, you know, I'll always turn up on in some way of shape or form on a shark week show.
[00:50:57] Greg: So, uh, I very much look
[00:50:59] Luke: forward to that. Awesome. Well, so do we, well, Dr. Greg Skomal, thank you so much for your time, mate. It's uh, it's always a pleasure chatting to you. Good luck with the white sharks up there. We'll come sample some of ourselves real soon. Look forward to it.
[00:51:11] Greg: Thanks Luke.
[00:51:17] Luke: So I wanna thank Greg again for joining us. And one of the things I love about Dr. Greg Skomal is his passion for sharks really comes through and the way that he explains things in ways that we can really understand them, even when sometimes perhaps we don't want to hear what the answer is. And in this case, you know, we're talking about shark movement patterns, and the answer that people sometimes seem to be a bit uncomfortable with is we're returning.
[00:51:43] Luke: To normal in some cases, particularly like in Cape Cod, for example, you. We abit eliminated the seals in the area and the sharks disappeared. The sharks partly disappeared because their food disappeared, but also cuz they were being targeted and hunted. But now we want the seals back. Well, we also need to have the sharks back.
[00:52:04] Luke: Otherwise we're gonna have seals running outta control. We need a balanced ecosystem. So we can't just pick our trophy species that we decide, Hey, we like those ones. Those get to live without acknowledging that. Nature has evolved to have a trophy pyramid for a reason. We need to have certain predators, certain prey, and an abundance of each so that we can have a healthy system that we could all enjoy.
[00:52:31] Luke: The inconvenience of that for us humans is that sometimes we're gonna have to accept that it may not be safe to go in the water in certain conditions. It might not be smart. To go out there and just expect that there won't be anything sharing those waters with us. So we're gonna have to change our behavior patterns.
[00:52:49] Luke: That's just really what it comes down to. We might not be able to go out and expect to go swimming as much as we like off of, uh, summer beach, because there might be sharks around. We might not be able to go out and catch that mahi or that tuna or something that we've been dreaming about that we'd really want because there also might be a shark in the area using those waters, but that is a symptom of a healthy.
[00:53:10] Luke: Ecosystem and responsible human decisions in managing that ecosystem rather than the reverse of it being overpopulated with predators. And because we don't get to do the things that we want to do, that something needs to change. Now we do need to recognize that the ocean is changing. We are seeing warming.
[00:53:29] Luke: We are seeing sharks, moving into areas where we didn't think they were supposed to be, or they're just opportunistically moving into cuz that's what sharks do. This is happening. This isn't something that we can click our fingers in reverse. We can't put fences in, we can't deter them from being in certain areas it's happening.
[00:53:48] Luke: So I think we need to just have the appreciation for the ecosystem. The appreciation that in response to the water's warming. Predators will move in to take care of the inevitable abundance of other animals that'll be there. And that will then. Contribute to another version of a healthy, the ecosystem.
[00:54:07] Luke: It might not be what we remember 30 years ago. It might not be what we remember 10 years ago in 10, 20 years. Time it'll be different than it is right now, but all of that, as long as we're being responsible in managing the oceans and the stocks and not taking things out selectively. Just because they're inconvenient to us.
[00:54:25] Luke: All of it is gonna be a new version of normal as far as the animals go. And they're the ones in charge of keeping the oceans healthy. And we have a duty to them and the rest of the planet to foster a better intelligence in how we manage those animals, the ocean, and how much respect we have for them in keeping it clean and healthy for us.
[00:54:44] Luke: So I'm gonna leave you with a quote today from Dr. Grace Gomo because he has such a way with words. He says, the more we know about these sharks, the more we Revere. And the less we fear them. I'll leave you with that thought.
[00:54:59] Luke: Okay. Well that's all for today's episode. Stay tuned to this feed. As we continue to cover the Sharkies current topics, talk to top scientists and experts and learn about the latest conservation efforts to keep this amazing animal and our oceans from extinction. Thanks for listening to shark week the podcast.
[00:55:16] Luke: Be sure to rate us five stars and subscribe for more shark fun. Until next time I'm Luke tipple and I'll chat to you soon.