Sparks continue to fly in part two of Luke Tipple’s debate with author, shark fishing advocate & founder of FlyZone Fishing Robert ‘Fly’ Navarro.
Sparks continue to fly in part two of Luke Tipple’s debate with author, shark fishing advocate & founder of FlyZone Fishing Robert ‘Fly’ Navarro. The pair continue to discuss shark fishing tournaments, shark finning, ocean conservation and much more, even managing to find some common ground along the way! Plus, they discuss the death threats Fly has faced and why it’s so important to maintain an open dialogue when speaking about divisive issues.
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[00:00:00] Luke: On today's podcast, we have the second half of the interview with Robert Fly Navarro. You'll remember he's an author, a sport fisherman, and founder of fly zone fishing. You'll also remember he's an outspoken shark fishing advocate. Now we've been going head to head on a range of issues. The second part is coming up right now.
[00:00:21] Luke: I'm Luke Tip, marine biologist, and a frequent voice on my favorite things, oceans and sharks, and I'm stoked to bring the magic of Shark Week. Right to your ears. You know, sharks have been a big part of my life for over 20 years. They're a critical part of the ocean and a conduit to a better understanding life on our planet.
[00:00:39] Luke: So whether you've never seen Shark Week before, or you've been a diehard fan over the 30 plus years it's been around, this podcast is for you.
[00:00:53] Luke: Welcome everyone to Shark Week, the podcast. Today we are airing part two of our conversation with Robert Fly Navarra. You remember we got into some pretty controversial topics and we have so much more to say. You ready to get back into it? Fly. Let's get started. Okay, so before we jump into shark thinning, let's quickly remind our listeners what it is and why it's so controversial now.
[00:01:14] Luke: Shark thinning, as we usually refer to it, is a practice of catching a shark to harvest the fins, and quite often discarding the rest of the carcass. Now this can happen, even if the shark is still alive. It, it's super cruel. The shark is thrown back into the water after the fins have been chopped off, and then the shark obviously dies.
[00:01:31] Luke: It suffocates to death. Uh, it, it's a horrendous way. Now eating Shark Fin soup is considered a status symbol in certain regions, particularly in Asia. Now, as a result, shark finning has contributed massively to the decline of shark populations, and that's mainly because the shark fins are so valuable. Now, there's a lot of opposition to this.
[00:01:52] Luke: More and more countries are now banning shark fitting and the Sharkfin trade, but it's still a massive industry. And here in the. Shark finning is illegal. The shark fin trade, that's, you know, shark fins being sold and moved in and out of our borders. It's still not banned. Now in some states it is, and it looks to be, there's actually bills on the table right now that look like they might ban at us wide.
[00:02:16] Luke: Uh, but it's still something we're working on. Uh, but let me go back to what you were asking. Now. Fly. You had a question for me,
[00:02:21] Fly: uh, just this past year and, and, and, and if it's over a year, I could be wrong. It could be 14 months. So, uh, we just, uh, made, we banned the sale of Shark Fins in the state of Florida.
[00:02:34] Fly: Are you aware of that? Oh, yeah, Yeah. That's part of that. Okay. So here's my question. If that shark was legally harvested, legally harvested, I, I am 100. Against, and I would say 99% of the fishermen that I know, and I, I'm almost comfortable saying a hundred percent, but I'm gonna say 99 just to cover my ass.
[00:02:56] Fly: 99% of the fishermen I know are completely against thinning of sharks and then releasing their, the carcasses back to the water. That, first of all, that's disgusting. All right? For me, it's 100% disgusting. If somebody legally catches a shark to sell the meat, sell the liver, sell the cartilage, sell the teeth.
[00:03:19] Fly: Why shouldn't those fins be legal to sell?
[00:03:23] Luke: Because once detached from the body, it's, it's very difficult to tell which species that came from. Um, even scientists have a problem identifying which cartilage is from which fish. So we have no way of being able to tell which. Actual carcas or species that came from, plus the reduction of an emphasis on the value of sharkfin in the United States have contributed to the recovery of many of the species that you are actually now able to go out and target, uh, sustainably.
[00:03:52] Luke: Um, so I think that that should be a valueless product, uh, globally.
[00:03:56] Fly: Well, what, what we've done, because it's banned here in, uh, it's all the Gulf Coast states, Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Texas. So you've got rid of what was a, a legally caught shark. You cut it off and you have to throw it away.
[00:04:15] Fly: Now, there's less of those out there. So in economics, supply and demand. You just got rid of all of these shark fins that came from here. You just made the sharkfin more valuable in the rest of the world.
[00:04:30] Luke: Well that's, that's the ivory, uh, conversation and an argument that people make for not being able to sell or resell ivory.
[00:04:37] Luke: Um, but I mean, in fact, you're talking about, you know, the ban on Shark Fin Sale in 14 states as it is right now. There's another bill right now being considered where it would be banned, uh, throughout the United States and, and yes, for certain markets that may drive up the. In certain places, but as a, like, the major contributor to shark decimation around the globe is shark thinning.
[00:05:06] Luke: Somebody has to set the standard for not valuing that product anymore. It, it has to be taken off the table. If shark fins are not taken off the table, if shark fins are permissible to be sold regardless of they're being black market or not, then species will be eradicated. And we've seen that. It's very clear.
[00:05:28] Luke: Sharks shark numbers around the world are down about 90%. The very fact that we can be sitting here having a conversation that involves any sustainable take of shark whatsoever is largely to do with the management practices that have been put in place that include the banning of sale of shark fin. I think that's, uh, there is.
[00:05:47] Luke: Some complications that arise from it for sure with black markets, but it is the standard that we, as the US should be putting out.
[00:05:53] Fly: So, um, and I, I'm, I'm assuming you're well aware of this, uh, our commercial fleet, and I'm gonna go to the commercial side really quick. Sure. Uh, and, and not because I partake in it, but because I'm, I'm looking at what they go through, uh, because I see a lot of the regulations that are put on them are commercial.
[00:06:13] Fly: In any of the highly mi migratory species, not just sharks, they are most one of the most regulated fleets in the entire world. Um, i e safety, i e protecting of the fish once it gets caught, so on and so forth. And, And I, I feel like I'm barking up a wrong tree here because I, I, I see your stance. I see your stance.
[00:06:41] Fly: And I, and I, and I hate people trying to sell me on their stance. I have a hard problem, um, with anything going to waste and I have, and, and something that. It was legally caught. It's caught on a legal fish. It's legally harvested. I do not like seeing anything thrown in the garbage can. If, uh, if I'm going to, I, I like to deer hunt.
[00:07:09] Fly: It's, it's one of the things I like to do. Uh, I like to be outdoors. I like I eat the whole thing. Uh, I don't like to see anything go to waste. Um, I. Anytime an animal has to lose its life for consumption, I feel that we need to respect that animal and, uh, us as a lack of a better term, not a lack of a better term, it's what we are.
[00:07:34] Fly: We're an apex predator, uh, for us to sit there and say, Uh, I don't want this part being sold. If it was legally caught.
[00:07:43] Luke: The market for shark Fins, what, what is the product valuable for?
[00:07:46] Fly: Uh, cons, Human consumption to what value? I I that I don't know. I don't know. I've only had sh I've only had shark fins soup one time.
[00:07:54] Fly: Uh, I was not in this country. It was something that was brought out to me as I was a guest in a different
[00:08:00] Luke: country. Exactly. It, it's used as, it's a, it's a status symbol. Food, uh, used in many countries, largely Asian, Asian countries. And it's, uh, it's, it's been ascribed to, uh, Completely nonsense. Uh, medical benefits, uh, you know, it's used for cartilage products, which don't, There's no scientific basis for whatsoever.
[00:08:22] Luke: Um, but it's mostly a status symbol, food, and, and that is what drives it. The, the rarer, the better, the bigger, the better, the more valuable, Um, If we can put no value on that product, that's where it's gonna change. I mean, we've done so much advocacy in, in Asia to get that status symbol to no longer be a status symbol.
[00:08:44] Luke: Cause I mean, it's like eating toenails, like soft toenails, right? , It doesn't actually do anything for you. Well,
[00:08:50] Fly: but, but here's the, here's the thing. So. Uh, I am the son of, uh, two immigrants from, from Cuba. Um, and I grew up eating beans and rice. Sure. Who are you to tell me I can't eat beans no more.
[00:09:04] Luke: If it's a food that sustains you and it's sustainable to get, you can do whatever you like, sir.
[00:09:10] Luke: But it is not sustainable to harvest sharkfin at the rights of which it is being harvested to feed the need for status. Symbol
[00:09:17] Fly: a a Again, I, I, I'm not disagreeing. With thinning of sharks, what I'm disagreeing with is if a shark is caught legally, 100% legal. Uh, it's, and I'm gonna go back to Noah and hms.
[00:09:34] Fly: This shark can be harvested. Boats are allowed to harvest X number of 'em. Uh, I knew back in the day when, uh, when shark sales were still allowed, uh, shark fishermen were having an issue with one particular shark. Uh, because, uh, the way the rule read at the time was you were only allowed to have X number of fins per.
[00:09:56] Fly: Per shark, it was a, it was a number, it was uh, an average number, and then lemon sharks, because lemon sharks have, I think either. Somewhere between two or four more fins, uh, and it was throwing everybody's balance completely out of whack, and it made them not keep any more lemon sharks. Listen me personally, uh, regulation is hard.
[00:10:19] Fly: The more rules you put out there, the more regulations, the harder it is. Uh, I was okay with that saying, Hey man, if this is the number people came out with, uh, because they didn't want people whacking out a bunch of sharks or a bunch of fins and then throwing the carcasses over, and suddenly you have 500 fins and you only have 20 carcasses.
[00:10:36] Fly: Uh, I get it. Uh, you, you gotta draw a line somewhere, but the part where suddenly, uh, you're outlying one particular that was on a illegally caught fish. Uh, You like, you like snapper? Sure. Yeah. So what happens if the state of Florida right now just outlawed the sale of the tail of the
[00:10:58] Luke: snapper? Well, the tail of
[00:11:00] Fly: snapper, you have to chop it off and throw it away.
[00:11:03] Luke: I mean, are, are you saying but some people like the, I think you're kind of making my point for me cuz you know the tail of the snapper are, you're talking about just the fin or you're talking about like the back portion of the snapper Because I, I, I want to get your point ju No,
[00:11:14] Fly: no, just that little tale where, where suddenly some people, when I.
[00:11:18] Fly: I used to eat the tail of the yellow tail. My grandparents used to fry the whole thing in the tail and we eat it. And, uh, now we are sitting here and I, and, and I get your point of the, the status symbol. I'm not arguing about it. Uh, I, I, I get your point. I don't know enough about Sharkfin soup. Um, so I don't wanna speak out of turn cuz I, I, I've been to enough Asian countries and I've done enough stuff in Asia.
[00:11:46] Fly: Uh, to try just about anything, uh, off camera. I'll tell you about my last trip to Japan, uh, where I some pretty gnarly stuff, uh, but it was what everybody was eating. Um, who am I to tell somebody they can't eat something, especially if they're not living in my, in my home? Uh, now, Listen, we manage our fishery out here and uh, we are under strict regulations.
[00:12:16] Fly: We abide by them. Some people may. And whether you're commercial, recreational, um, if you don't abide by 'em, I think you should be punished. But if it's legal, uh, I don't see why something should be put to waste.
[00:12:33] Luke: I, I agree in concept with you. We don't live in the perfect world where that will work, unfortunately.
[00:12:39] Luke: Um, we're dealing with species that are being taken unsustainable and fishing fleets who have no problems breaking federal rules to get into waters where they shouldn't be fishing. Uh, to provide a, a market that is a. Over demanded, and we're dealing with, you know, fish stocks globally that can't supply that demand.
[00:13:00] Fly: So, so I, if that's the case, why are people threatening me and not the fleets from other countries?
[00:13:06] Luke: Well, there's a lot of good media coming out that does that, and , and I think if you actually looked at other countries and, and the efforts that are being done by, you know, shark and, and you know, I'll, I'll say, um, ecological.
[00:13:20] Luke: Advocates worldwide. There is a lot of focus being placed on that. That's why the US as, that's why it's, it's, there's bills in the US right now to get things like Sharkfin Band here to put pressure on international, uh, agencies to do the same. But
[00:13:37] Fly: again, if the fit, if, if that's the case, then why not? The harvest of
[00:13:43] Luke: all sharks.
[00:13:44] Luke: I would actually say that that's probably a good thing to do in some circumstances. However, that would be against the data. And I will say that the data always has to rule and the data says that in some cases the harvest of some species is sustainable. And I think that that's kind of where we need to sit cuz we can't refute it otherwise.
[00:14:05] Fly: So if their har, if. If they're able to be sustained to be harvested, why not use the entire shark?
[00:14:14] Luke: Cause we're not exporting shark mate to China. Well,
[00:14:18] Fly: how about if
[00:14:18] Luke: it was shark teeth? Well, that's also another issue. That's a problem. But there, what happens if it's shark liver? That is also another problem that the squalling is, is actually contributing pretty heavily to, um, the undersupply of sharks.
[00:14:32] Luke: But
[00:14:33] Fly: the, the whole thing is if the, if, if the fish is caught legally, On a, on a sustainable species, why not use the whole thing? Why should something be thrown away? Why would you advocate for throwing away a perfectly good
[00:14:49] Luke: resource? I think we could go on around and around on this. Uh, yeah.
[00:14:52] Fly: Yeah. And that's all we're doing here.
[00:14:54] Fly: We're we're going around in the same circle. Uh, we, we are.
[00:14:57] Luke: I think, you know, I, I, I get your. It's well made. Um, I, I think, I think in a perfect world that works perfectly well. Um, but we're not in that perfect
[00:15:05] Fly: world. And I, and I get, and I totally get your point, um, until you get people to stop wanting to eat a Sharkfin soup.
[00:15:16] Fly: Uh, but again, it's, it's something that's, Traditional to some people, uh, and I, listen, it's hard for me to speak. It's very easy for me to speak in my house where I have air conditioning, running water, and I have, uh, a piece of food in my refrigerator, what to eat and what not to eat in somebody else's.
[00:15:35] Fly: Homeland. Um,
[00:15:37] Luke: yeah, but that, that's, that's never the case. We're talking about shark fin soup that's being served to the richer the rich. We're not talking about people who are eating it, cuz they have to. Let's get off the, the shark fin topic. Um, I wanna know, given your experience just recently with these shark fishing tournaments, does it change.
[00:15:54] Luke: The way that you approach shark fishing tournaments in the future with your own promotions and social media agency, et cetera. Um,
[00:16:00] Fly: one of the things I know we've talked about is to have a full all release tournament. Um, because of the fact that so many people enjoyed it, they had fun. Yeah. Um, again, my, my business, my, my company, my number one goal every day is to introduce fishing to a new person every day.
[00:16:19] Fly: That's, that's my number one goal. Uh, show people that it's fun. Uh, it's a great way to spend time with your friends and your family. So, that being said, um, we are talking about doing another one, but this one will be, uh, 100% all
[00:16:31] Luke: release. Uh, The model that we discussed with, uh, uh, hs u s, um, Was, you know, please, please
[00:16:39] Fly: let me know what, what that acronym stands for.
[00:16:41] Fly: I'm not familiar with it. HS. S
[00:16:42] Luke: uh, Humane Society of the United States. Okay, thank you. So, uh, back when I was, uh, running Shark Free Marinas, uh, we partnered up with the Humane Society of the United States, and it was actually quite a big deal for them because they'd never considered anything. I mean, they're, they're the sort of upper echelon of animal protection.
[00:17:00] Luke: No harm can ever come to an animal. Right. Um, but we discussed with them the benefit. Of actually being able to commercialize the gathering of research data and the form that took was. Advocating for the catch and release tournaments where every boat would have a scientist or a researcher on board where they can take measurements.
[00:17:20] Luke: They can advise the fishermen on which species they get. Cause that's another big thing, you know, fishermen maybe. Exceptional fishermen, but they may not be well versed on how to best release a hammerhead if they get one up. For example. Hammerheads don't survive well when they're caught. So having a watcher on board to collect that data and everyone still gets out on the water, the sponsors still got behind it.
[00:17:42] Luke: Uh, we still got the data we needed. And whatever that data shows, whether it sh shows that there is indeed more sharks in this area, um, whatever it shows, you're still not going out there and saying, Hey, we're just not gonna, we're just gonna kill them.
[00:17:55] Fly: So first of all, I want to say how excited I am that you're getting excited that you hit your microphone.
[00:18:00] Fly: I love it, . That's awesome. . So here's, here's my question to you. If we have, um, if we have an all release tournament. 100% all release. Is that something that you personally could stand behind?
[00:18:18] Luke: Absolutely. I have. Dozens of times before, personally in person and advocating for their organ.
[00:18:24] Fly: Oh, this is the first, this is the first time you and I have talked.
[00:18:27] Fly: Yeah. So please, please don't talk down to me when I ask you a question. I just, I don't know. I'm
[00:18:32] Luke: asked. I'm just asking. I'm not talking down to you. I thought you're familiar with, uh, Okay. Uh, Shark Free Marine into what we're doing because you said you were before.
[00:18:39] Fly: I, I'm, I'm familiar with shark free Marinas because, uh, I, I flew down to Rico.
[00:18:45] Fly: Yeah. And, um, Somebody that knew about this tournament came right up to me and started talking about I, I'm like, Whoa, whoa. Calm down. Don't you wanna talk? We have a conversation. Uh, don't, don't, I don't want to have to get defensive. don't come after me with a stick.
[00:19:15] Luke: The good thing about tournaments and working with, uh, tournament organizers and the fishermen is that they're very passionate and they're usually extremely knowledgeable. You know, some of the fishermen that we've worked with, you know, they, they know how to. Find the, the species and the size and, and the, the right things that we need for the data, while also fulfilling the categories of whatever tournament they're in.
[00:19:36] Luke: And they're, they're usually extremely respectful towards the animals and, uh, the scientists on board get their data. Yeah. I mean, that's how research gets done. The, the notion that some people have that there is enough money in research. That scientists could actually go out and gather the, all the data themselves is moronic.
[00:19:54] Luke: And actually, no, I won't say that. It's not, Yeah, it's, it's idealism. It's not moronic cuz people would like to see that. But there isn't that much money in research. We need it to be commercially backed
[00:20:05] Fly: and if people really knew, uh, how cutthroat it is. Uh, that people, So, and I'm, I, I hate to throw scientists under the bus, but they are cutthroat to make sure they get their grants that they need to continue the research that they need, that they want.
[00:20:20] Fly: Um, and it's, it is hard. Uh, so it is nice when you have, like I brought up in, uh, In a statement a little while ago, because of the fishermen and because having scientists on the dock, they found a new species, uh, of, of, of marlin, uh, because of the fishing efforts that are out there. So, um, you, you know, and you're talking about people that spend.
[00:20:47] Fly: Countless hours on the water. And like I said at the very beginning of this, you and I will probably be almost entirely except for a couple little things. We, there's a lot of things that we feel very, very passionately about that are. That coincide with each other. Uh, it's just the, maybe the approach or maybe there's a percentage of it.
[00:21:11] Fly: Uh, like, and, and correct me if I'm wrong, what I'm perceiving, uh, after this conversation that we've had so far is most of the stuff is the same except for the harvesting of the sharks. Am I correct to say that
[00:21:25] Luke: I, I think our major perhaps disagreements or points of contention here is number. The harvesting of the sharks is unnecessary.
[00:21:33] Luke: Number two, the rationale behind the tournament, which is that there's too many sharks in an area, and it wasn't your words. I didn't hear it come outta your mouth, but the tone of a lot of people on that tournament was that this was the ability to go out and reduce those numbers a little bit. Um, I think that that is not backed by science.
[00:21:52] Luke: There's no reason to be thinking that it's a healthy population, and that is proven by science. So those are, those are the two things that we're really disagreeing on here.
[00:21:59] Fly: Did you, and, and just repeat what you said. Did you say that it is a healthy population where
[00:22:04] Luke: all, All the data right now shows that we are looking at healthy populations, and that's backed up by Noah, which says that it's sustainable.
[00:22:12] Luke: I mean, they do yearly census and
[00:22:13] Fly: they do not do yearly census.
[00:22:15] Luke: They, well, they, they collect data yearly to make a, You're right, they don't do a yearly assessments. They collect data throughout the year to make assessments.
[00:22:22] Fly: Well, e each as, so they have a, they have different assessments for different species at different times, meaning this year may be hammerhead and then you might not get hammerhead again for 10 years.
[00:22:35] Fly: And don't quote me on that date. I'm just using another
[00:22:38] Luke: example actually. No. Is, is that correct? Cuz they, they issue, I mean, I've looked at the Noah data and every year they catalog the number of sharks that are reported to them. They look at it, whether it's, you know, larger or smaller, they look for a trend to see if it's increasing or decreasing, and then make their assessments on whether that.
[00:22:55] Luke: Species can still be caught, right?
[00:22:57] Fly: They, well, they, they do, they do stock assessments. Uh, each year they have different stock assessments. So different species are different and they do different kind. And I'm glad you, and actually you just triggered a memory of mine, um, and. You've used the word a couple times, and I'm gonna re repeat.
[00:23:16] Fly: The word you used is follow the science, follow the data. So, um, and you, I don't know if you're in front of a computer and I can't quote the year, um, but one year I remember the date I f. They, they flew me up on an emergency meeting on December 6th through the eighth, and I wanna say the year was 2017, but you can probably look this up.
[00:23:40] Fly: Noah and Nash Marine Fisheries got sued by Oceania to reduce the mortality of dusky sharks by 30%. So, uh, we got rushed. And they got sued. You have to reduce mortality by 30%. And I said we A 2015 message. A 2015. Okay. Thank you. Yep. Uh, I knew it's been a while. I didn't realize it was Holy smokes. I've been on.
[00:24:04] Fly: I've been on that panel for a lot longer than I thought. I thought I was on that panel for like seven years. That's seven years already. And I was already like my second year. Uh, anyway, so, uh, we got broken down into different work working groups and reduced by 30%, reduced by 30%, reduced by 30%. And I said, Okay, so we're coming up with ideas about reduction of 30%.
[00:24:27] Fly: So, uh, I finally, I'm thinking, I'm okay with different things that we can do about to reduce mortality by 30%. And I finally asked the question. I'm like, Hey, listen, I'm just a dumb fisherman. 30% of what? What's the number? Are we, are we losing 10,000 duss a year? Are we losing a thousand dus a year? Are we losing a hundred thousand Duskys a year?
[00:24:56] Fly: What? What's the baseline so that we can reduce it by 30? The answer that was given to me by Noah was, We don't know. And that number was given to me, uh, and I when I asked, What do you mean you don't know? It's because the way they do the studies, uh, what you said, Every year they, they call x number of people, uh, and they get their numbers, and then they add a multiplier.
[00:25:28] Fly: Uh, fishing, uh, stock assessment isn't an exact science. There's, there's a lot of, uh, and I don't know everything about it. Um, there's an actual multiplier and it's tough when you're dealing with an open ocean and you don't know what's below the surface. It's not like being on a cattle farming, You can count the heads, and I said, Well, what do you mean you don't know?
[00:25:50] Fly: He said, Well, it all depends on who ends up answering our question. Who we call and how they answer. He go, they said, uh, some years mortality is 2,600 dusky sharks. Some years it's six. I go, Six what? Six dozen? 600. They said no mortality is six . And I'm like, Well, how do we redo mortality by 30%? Yeah. Just knock it down to four.
[00:26:19] Fly: A sick to four. Is that what you mean? How do So, um, and I, I and I, and I'm not trying to throw anybody under the bus, it's, it's hard to collect this kind of data because of, uh, funding. Uh, unless you have somebody that's out there counting every single fish, it's hard And. It's not an exact science. And again, and going back to where we wanted to have this, uh, this shark tournament was to just to show, give people some numbers.
[00:26:51] Fly: Hey, uh, and again, I'm gonna go back to, I have to thank you guys cuz you guys brought a lot of attention to what we were doing. We were just gonna go show. You guys called up, Noah, you said all these things. So now a week after the tournament, Noah called me up because I'm all over the news and I'm on the AP panel.
[00:27:12] Fly: So they're like, Fly, what's going on? What happened? What did you see? What are the numbers? And, um, we gave them the numbers. I went back to I, our meeting was again this year in September, uh, we had a conversation, uh, And this is a J, and I hate to use the word problem. This is, there's no easy fix. There's no silver bullet to this.
[00:27:34] Fly: Um, It's, it's, it's, it's something, And again, I'm gonna go back to what I said earlier. I wanted to start a conversation. We've started the conversation with Noah. We've started the conversation with a lot of people. Uh, we started this conversation with you and I, where even now, I just asked you and, and you informed me that if we had an all release tournament, is that something that you can get behind and, and help us with?
[00:28:01] Fly: So, If that's being said, and from this moment forward, if, and I say this moment forward, which could be three years, it could be five years, it could be 10 years where suddenly groups like mine can work with groups like yours to capture numbers and help Noah, then guess what? That tournament worked.
[00:28:21] Luke: I think, uh, yeah, you're touching on what I always rail about, which is the lack of real solid data and the frustration in having that.
[00:28:30] Luke: So if, if organizations. like yours were to say, Hey, we are gonna run a research based tournament, which you have in the past. You have in the future. Um, you have. No mortality. I think what you'll find is you'll get a lot of groups, uh, advocating for and helping you with the same amount of press possibly, but not the negative stuff.
[00:28:53] Luke: Well,
[00:28:53] Fly: here's the question though. And, and you say without the negative number of press, and, and I'm just being a devil's advocate here, you're saying that you would be supportive of it. But there may be some people in certain groups, and I don't, I'm not trying to, but some people that say, No, we don't want those numbers, we want just nobody touching the sharks.
[00:29:13] Luke: Well then I'd say to them that, uh, you know, you gotta break some mes to make an omelet. And we do need those numbers. We do need people to go out and actually do intensive efforts, and there may be some mortality from. Those efforts though that data. But in having that data, we can better understand the fish stocks better, understand the ocean, and better understand how we get to protect these animals better and set a better example for the rest of the world who should be doing the same thing?
[00:29:39] Fly: I, uh, I kinda like that statement. I've never used that statement before. Um, I like it. You sometimes you have to break a couple legs to make an
[00:29:48] Luke: omelet. Science ain't pretty. You know, you science can it. To come up with good conclusive answers to build a future. Sometimes science has to be a little bit destructive, and that doesn't mean that we go out and decimate anything.
[00:30:01] Luke: It just means that sometimes the practices can be less than ideal in some people's eyes, but that's how we get data and that's okay. So
[00:30:08] Fly: that being said, Um, I know it's, And in, um, I hate saying this, I know in the circles on your side, there's been a lot being said about the two divers that are getting prosecuted for pulling the long line gear out of the water.
[00:30:23] Fly: Are you familiar with that?
[00:30:25] Luke: Yeah, I mean that's, that's probably a conversation for another podcast and that's fine. But I feel like we might have some more of these. But I mean, in that, in that circumstance, they, they went and did something they shouldn't have. And that was,
[00:30:36] Fly: that was a Noah study. They had a Noah scientist on board for that.
[00:30:40] Luke: Yeah, they, they messed with fish and gear that they shouldn't have in the point of advocating for something that was unrelated. Um, you know, there's a time and a place for protest and that was a, a valid scientific effort that they probably shouldn't have gone after. So, and, and
[00:30:54] Fly: again, that, and that is, that's the only reason why I brought up, uh, Why I brought up the whole fact of if you do it for science, we can be supportive of it.
[00:31:03] Fly: And I'm like, Are you sure the whole group will be supportive of it because of No,
[00:31:07] Luke: no, You'll never, you'll never find the entire group. But what you will find is that people won't be calling death threats in, um, and not that I'm advocating for it or saying that should happen. Just saying that. Please. No more death threats, man.
[00:31:19] Luke: Please. Uh, look, I mean to, I, I will say conclusively to our audience out there, we do not. Any type of physical threats or violence or harassment of people, Um, because of, uh, just like exactly what just happened in this tournament. We, we definitely don't, However valid protest is encouraged. I think there were a lot of good people who had, uh, the right ideas and like you say, a few outliers, uh, perhaps took it a little too far.
[00:31:46] Luke: Um, yeah. And that, that as you, anything on both sides that existed? 100%. 100%. Look, let's, uh, let's wrap this up. Is there, is there anything you wanna say to, uh, to our audience? I'm sure we'll have you back on at some point, but for now, how would you like to sign off? Well, fir,
[00:32:00] Fly: first of all, just the fact that you said that gave me goosebumps.
[00:32:03] Fly: I'm so glad that you would, uh, Love to have me back. Uh, and I threw the word love in there. Maybe you, that's
[00:32:09] Luke: your word, but been one of the most interesting conversations I've had in a while. .
[00:32:12] Fly: I, I, I really appreciate that because, uh, and I appreciate the fact that, um, this was a great conversation. Uh, I love good conversations.
[00:32:22] Fly: Um, my, my girlfriend and I, uh, week very similarly we're kind of a little bit on the opposite sides of certain, um, Stands and, uh, she feels that sometimes it's a problem. I'm like, No, I love it because we have such great conversations. You make me think, and I love that. I love a good conversation where, okay, I never thought of it.
[00:32:49] Fly: Like that, you, you made me look at it in a new way. Doesn't mean I have to agree with it, but you know what? Sometimes it gives me something that when I'm talking later on, it gives me an opportunity to say, Hey, have you guys thought about it this way? So, no, I, I appreciate the fact that you gave me the time and a platform, uh, and some new ideas on how you speak.
[00:33:11] Fly: And I, and I appreciate your, uh, openness. Uh, to how I was looking at things. Doesn't mean that you agree with what I'm saying, but you, you, you gave me the time to look at it through my eyes and say, Okay, I see that I don't agree with you. Uh, but okay, I see why you see it that way. And let's, let's get some more data.
[00:33:35] Fly: Let's look at it a new way. Or let's look at a data, a data set and say, Okay, we can look at it this way. And now it gives me a different vantage point so I can understand, Hey guys, while we're looking at this, let's look at it, uh, this other way as well. So, no, I, I, I greatly appreciate you giving me the time, uh, on your platform.
[00:33:55] Fly: I appreciate you giving me a great conversation. Uh, I'm fired up for the rest of the day. Everybody else better stand back, man. I'm gonna get a lot of stuff done today, ,
[00:34:03] Luke: uh, well, Thank you very much. This certainly has been a stimulating conversation and I appreciate your candidness and, and openness on this topic.
[00:34:11] Luke: Um, we look forward to having you back sometime soon.
[00:34:13] Fly: All right. And, uh, I will, now that I know, uh, your feelings, uh, as we move forward with some other stuff, maybe I will, uh, contact you for your perspective and maybe some guidance on how to do, uh, certain things a certain way to make sure we might be capturing something from a.
[00:34:34] Fly: Oh, that was a pun. I didn't even plan on it. Capturing , uh, just to make sure we're, we might be going about it in, in a, in a, in a different way to make sure we get some more information that we may not have thought about.
[00:34:47] Luke: I'd be happy to. I think there's, uh, there's more common ground here than perhaps people realize and, uh, I look forward to helping out with that in the future.
[00:34:56] Luke: Thanks, Fly. Appreciate your time, mate.
[00:34:57] Fly: No, thank you very much. And uh, I look forward to, uh, talking with you again soon in the future.
[00:35:08] Luke: Well, what can I say that hasn't already been said in that conversation with Fly The guy's a character there. Clearly. A lot to be discussed here, but I will go back to my mainstay tenants of data has to rule, and I think a lot of our conversation was around how we feel about things, how we feel about sharks being taken.
[00:35:34] Luke: Uh, the, the economics of it, the shark finning the global problems, but it all comes down to the data. And if the data. Doesn't exist. We need to find ways to get it, and I think that there are constructive ways that we can get that data by working with people like Fly and the organizations that he works with.
[00:35:51] Luke: To go and use recreational fishing and perhaps even commercializing that and turning it into tournaments isn't a bad idea when it's facilitating science. Where I draw the line is, It's purely recreational sport and destruction of a species that is just now enjoying a bit of breathing. Because God knows the sharks and their populations need some breathing room.
[00:36:16] Luke: Uh, you know, we're dealing with worldwide populations that have crashed by up to 90%. Sure. We might have some locally managed, well-managed species, and I'm not downplaying that, you know, Noah has done some excellent work in managing that. But we are dealing with highly migratory species that. Intermix and in a breed with other waters that we don't control.
[00:36:40] Luke: Now, sure, the bull sharks in America might not be swimming over to Thailand or something, but they do mix in waters that aren't federally controlled. So we, we really need to set the standard and example of sustainably managing the species and where there is mortal take. I think it's the right standard.
[00:37:04] Luke: To have that. We don't do it just for sport because there really isn't any good eating meat being brought out of the larger sharks for these tournaments. They can talk all they like about, you know, it getting sent to food banks, et cetera, but it's, it's really, it's not good meat. It's often not accepted and the majority of the time those.
[00:37:25] Luke: Animals end up in the dumpster. That's, that's the fact, that's the truth. Yeah. That might not be always, but the majority of the time it is, and I think we can do better than that. So I do wanna thank everyone for, for listening to this. For those who are in the, the sport fishing camp, there's conservation is willing to work with.
[00:37:48] Luke: Absolutely. There are people who are decrying you and, and protesting and saying horrible things. Yes, that's absolutely the case that exists. As Fly said, You know, those are the outliers. The outliers in your camp are the ones who are going out and saying, Hey, let's catch and kill every shark. We can kill 'em all.
[00:38:08] Luke: They say string up, kill 'em all. Bash 'em, shoot 'em, chop 'em, whatever. Those are your. So while we on the conservation side might be able to say, Hey, do you think we can tone things down a bit and work with the sport fishermen to go and collect data that'll help better protect our animals? I think you'll find that most people will say, Yeah, but in return, talk to the people who are out there trying to bash, kill and destroy sharks.
[00:38:33] Luke: And get them to tone it down a bit as well, and perhaps stop that unsustainable practice and let's meet in the middle somewhere, guys. Cuz really we're all here to protect an animal that we very much care about. And if it's not the animal, it's the ocean and it's resources and they're all completely in a mix.
[00:38:49] Luke: There's no isolating them from each other. So we all have to work.
[00:38:57] Luke: Okay. Well, that's it for today's episode. I really hope you enjoyed it. I want you to stay tuned to this feed as we continue to cover the Sharkies current topics. Talk to top scientists and experts, and learn about the latest conservation efforts to keep this amazing animal from extinction. I wanna thank you for listening to Shark Week the podcast.
[00:39:12] Luke: Be sure to rate us five stars and subscribe for more shark fun facts. Until next time, I'm Luke Tipple. I'll chat to you soon.