Shark Girl Madison Stewart, star of Shark Week’s Jaws vs. The Blob, talks about the changing habits of and dangers to great white sharks.
Shark Week: The Podcast, goes behind the scenes of the Shark Week special, Jaws vs The Blob. Host Luke Tipple, chats with one of the stars of the show, Madison Stewart aka Shark Girl to discuss the beauty of great white sharks and the dangers looming in their habitat due to “The Blob”, a mass of warm water in the Northern Pacific linked to climate change and the shifting ocean ecosystems. Maddie talks about her time at Baja California’s Guadalupe Island where she studied the unusual presence of juvenile great white sharks and recounted her harrowing dive in the not-so-safe shark cage.
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[00:00:00] Luke: I wanna tell you a story about a tiny, volcanic little island, 130 nautical miles off the west coast of Mexico's Baja peninsula. In the waters around the island, a battle is raging. A battle between great white sharks, vying for control.
[00:00:16] Luke: Welcome to Shark Week: The Podcast! I'm Luke Tipple, marine biologist, and a frequent voice on my favorite things, oceans and sharks. I'm stoked to bring the magic of Shark Week, right to your ears. Sharks have been a big part of my life for over 20 years now, studying them and diving with them all around the world.
[00:00:35] Luke: I guess that's given me some of the street cred to participate in many Shark Week documentaries throughout the years, and, now, to be your host. So whether you've never seen Shark Week before, or you've been a diehard fan over the 30 plus years it's been around, this podcast is for you.
[00:00:54] Luke: Guadalupe is one of my favorite places in the world. And that's because it is the best place to see great white sharks. Every year, adult great whites travel to those waters and they feed on the massive elephant seals that populate the shores there. Now there's a problem. The population dynamics are changing on the island as we're starting to see juveniles turn up where they really shouldn't be.
[00:01:18] Luke: Juvenile great white sharks traditionally grow up in what we call nurseries in California and Baja, but “the Blob” is causing them to move out to Guadalupe island, where they're mixing with great big adult great whites. And we're not really sure if they're gonna survive or thrive in those waters. “The Blob” is a very, very large mass of warm water that's growing in the Pacific ocean.
[00:01:44] Luke: We've known about it since about 2013 and it doesn't show any signs of slowing down anytime soon. So, how will this affect the sharks long term and will the juveniles be able to survive, in what may be their new home, out in Guadalupe? To tell us more. I'm delighted to welcome Madison Stewart, AKA Shark Girl, filmmaker and star of Discovery’s Shark Week documentary Jaws Vs The Blob. Madi, how you doing?
[00:02:11] Madison: I'm good. How are you?
[00:02:11] Luke: I'm doing really, really well. Now, it's been a while since we've spoken. Last time I spoke to you, I think you were in Indonesia, or something, chasing sharks around. What have you been up to?
[00:02:22] Madison: I just got back from Indonesia. Not much changes in my life. But I am currently in Florida.
[00:02:29] Madison: So, that's good. We're a bit on the same time zone, but I was just in Indonesia last week. Same old, same old, just going different places around the world, trying to find different sharks and do some rad stuff.
[00:02:41] Luke: That's awesome. Now, I mean, your version of same old, same old is probably different than, you know, our listeners' version of same old, same old.
[00:02:47] Luke: So tell me about… what's keeping you really passionate right now. What's the actual project?
[00:02:52] Madison: Oh, that's a great question. So, right now, I'm kind of on my own little mission to do some research where I'm based in Indonesia. So I'm trying to do a bit of the very first ever shark tagging in an area where sharks are being hunted.
[00:03:07] Madison: So that's my main focus right now. So I'm working a lot with, like, the fishermen and mainly what we're looking at is tiger sharks. So nothing quite as crazy and cool as the great white, but yeah, it keeps me busy that's for sure.
[00:03:20] Luke: Now, you were working on a project where you were trying to institute sort of more… tourism versus fishing practices I believe. Was that in Indonesia? How did that project go?
[00:03:30] Madison: It's going really well. It's a long process. There's a lot of moving parts.
[00:03:35] Luke: It's a very ambitious project. So I imagine it's gonna take a while.
[00:03:39] Madison: Oh, it's just like one day I just woke up and decided I was gonna take on the entire sharkfin trade. Why not? You know, we all get a bit bored at 28, so… but it's, it's pretty cool. We have… I have employees that are shark fishermen, you know, like taking them out, doing tourist stuff off their boats, as opposed to them fishing sharks.
[00:03:57] Madison: So it's not exactly where I thought I would be at this age, but it's an excellent project. I love it, keeps the sharks happy when we're successful and we’re just trying to get it, like, really running smoothly now. So just a lot of work to make that happen.
[00:04:11] Luke: Yeah. I mean, that is, you know, one of the idealistic goals, isn't it, to flip the, you know, the fishing trade into some type of sustainable trade, whether that be, you know, tourism or some other type of education or research or something like that.
[00:04:24] Luke: It's incredible you're managing to pull that off to be quite honest. I'm really impressed.
[00:04:28] Madison: Oh, thank you. Yeah, it's a long time coming since we… we always have this image of shark fishermen as the bad guys. So our project really focuses on trying to work with them and that's required a lot of tolerance and patience from me. So yeah, it's coming along nice.
[00:04:44] Luke: Yeah. And you're dealing with, you know, people who have been brought up a certain way and, you know, you're not really the bad guy if you don't know what bad you're doing. So anyway, yeah, I think what you're doing over there is absolutely terrific. But, let's talk about “the blob” because, when I first saw the title of the show, I was like, oh… the blob… Oh, Pacific ocean. Okay. Let's talk about that.
[00:05:04] Luke: So, give me your interpretation of the blob and what's going on.
[00:05:09] Madison: Because the first thing that came to my mind was like Ghostbusters… it is so cool. Like I don't, I don't think there could ever be a title for this that gives it justice because it is this invisible, terrifying thing happening in our oceans that's going to create a lot of changes.
[00:05:27] Madison: And, the blob is essentially a temperature change in the water. It's kind of like, I don't know, I like to compare it to science fiction stuff like Ghostbusters and everything, but it's like a little crazy portal to another dimension… it's causing stuff to change.
[00:05:41] Madison: And so we were hanging out at Guadalupe trying to see some of the effects of the so-called blob.
[00:05:46] Luke: Now, when we talk about a temperature change, the ocean is an extremely sensitive, but also, you know, hardy place. And I know that there's a lot of species who specialize in different type of environments. And we talk about that a lot with sharks, but is there a sort of general thesis you can give us of what, you know, the blob is doing?
[00:06:06] Luke: What major effects are we seeing?
[00:06:08] Madison: It's super interesting because the effects of climate change, from what I've seen, around the world is different, absolutely everywhere. And I think the biggest thing is that we don't fully know exactly what's gonna happen, which is also the scariest thing. Like, a little example of what I've seen is in Tahiti… I know that the water temperature rose only very slightly, but it created such a stressful environment for sharks that they could no longer handle things that they were surviving before.
[00:06:36] Madison: Like simply being caught and released would now kill a shark ‘cause the water temperature's rising. So, it's very interesting, like the minute changes. And I think that we're only just starting to kind of understand and see what's happening. But we are witnessing now different distributions of sharks, different distributions of their prey, sharks hanging around in areas way longer than they used to.
[00:06:58] Madison: And all of this, I guess, also connects to humans because we have to interact with the animals and the oceans that are now changing because of this temperature change.
[00:07:06] Luke: And, if we talk about, you know, talking temperature change, maybe, so we, we can ground this for, you know, a few people who have these type of experiences.
[00:07:15] Luke: So, for example, you know, hurricanes and, you know, cyclones, can be caused by just a few degrees difference in water temperature. If we're talking about events like coral bleaching that we've heard about on the Great Barrier Reef and other reefs around the world, that can happen just from minute changes in temperature.
[00:07:35] Luke: So when we're talking about a very, very large area, and we're talking about the, you know, the blob is the size of a small country, right? It's massive. Som when we're talking about a water mass, that large, that is warming and effectively moving and pushing stuff into different areas where they're supposed to be, we're talking about massive turmoil in the ocean.
[00:07:56] Luke: And, in going down to Guadalupe, obviously you guys are looking for great whites but what started it? Did somebody tell you that there were juveniles in Guadalupe and we had to go check it out?
[00:08:09] Madison: Yeah, there was information coming out that, for the first time, juveniles were in areas at times where there hadn't been before, which was a pretty big deal because they were crossing paths with the larger adults in the area.
[00:08:21] Madison: So it was really an investigation to try and figure out how and if these juveniles were actually there.
[00:08:26] Luke: Now define a juvenile great white for us.
[00:08:30] Madison: Oh, they're so cute. So like, if Craig was here, he would get all technical, but I'm just gonna say that it's just… they're just cute.
[00:08:41] Madison: So its… they’re under a certain length and they are, like, their development is a little bit different. They have these, like, kind of disproportionate fins. They really do have, like, this cute little kind of puppy dog vibe. From my time with juvenile great whites, I can safely say that they are way crazier than most of the adults.
[00:09:00] Madison: They're so cool. They've got different personalities but they are just… from juveniles then goes sub adults. So they are just like that step before that. I like to always refer to them, when I'm talking about them, to people that come in contact with these sharks when they're surfing and in the water, I like to call them, like, the teenage learner drivers of the sea.
[00:09:20] Madison: Because that’s kind of what they are like, they're still figuring stuff out and they have a lot more confidence and they're very, very amazing sharks to dive with.
[00:09:29] Luke: That’s actually a really good way to put it. ‘Cause I can imagine these juveniles swimming around, just like, you know, the L or P platers that we have back in Australia.
[00:09:36] Luke: I don't know what they're even called… learners, I guess, here in the US, but buzzing around in the little hotbox cars, trying to go as, you know, as bad as they can. But then, they run across one of the adults and, the whole thing changes.
[00:09:49] Madison: Yeah. So I feel like also they, you know, we kind of know where juvenile great whites are in Australia.
[00:09:56] Madison: We kind of know where they are and they're obviously known in parts of like the California nursery grounds and then this blob event caused them to disappear. So that was like a pretty interesting thing, when what we think we know about sharks becomes immaterial and we're like, oh gosh, we have to try and figure this out all over again.
[00:10:14] Madison: So, it was really interesting to not only think that we were trying to learn something new, but also that they were now putting themselves in danger. Like, what does this mean for them? How are they gonna survive, interacting with the larger sharks?
[00:10:25] Luke: Yeah. And I actually, I have to wonder what… how they found their way out to Guadalupe in that sense, ‘cause we've known that they're, as you say, they're in California, they're also down in Baja and, you know, we know it because fishermen have caught them and, you know, we've seen that happening, but, for them to go out to Guadalupe, whether they followed one of the big guys out there or something else is going on. But it's an absolutely fascinating development.
[00:10:51] Luke: And because people haven't really been at Guadalupe all that often, it might have been going on for a little while, but you guys… were you the first ones to film juveniles out there?
[00:11:02] Madison: Yeah, we did. We definitely found evidence of juvenile great whites out there and it was really cool ‘cause we actually photographed some that we believe had never been identified before.
[00:11:14] Luke: That's amazing. So let's talk about Guadalupe Island. It's a place that's very special to me. You know, it's been fairly typically thought of as a place to find really big, great whites, particularly big females later in the year. And you roll up there… It's this prehistoric place that's just in the middle of the ocean.
[00:11:33] Luke: There's often little ominous cloud hanging over the top and you hear the elephant seals and everything going on. You're like, whoa, if there was a hunting ground ever for Guadalupe.. I've got it on my computer right now. I'm looking at it. If there was ever that perfect hunting ground from Jurassic park for sharks, it has to be this place.
[00:11:51] Luke: Now, what on earth is a tiny, little 5, 6, 7 foot juvenile great white doing swimming around in those waters. You'd think it'd be pretty trepidatious. What was the theory when you went out there? I know you started in deep water first and then moved to shallow, right?
[00:12:05] Madison: Yeah, it's exactly what you said. It’s like Guadalupe is known for these big sharks and it is to me.
[00:12:12] Madison: Every time we get there and we just see that rock in the middle of the ocean, it feels like you're at a Jurassic Park exhibit. Like, it's a really crazy, prehistoric, intense place. I would be, like, terrified if I was a juvenile great white out there, but I guess these guys, maybe they're adapting to know how to, like, coexist with the bigger adults. We did have to go shallow.
[00:12:36] Madison: We did do things that, I guess, you wouldn't usually do, at Guadalupe, because obviously, most people, when they get in the water, they're like, I wanna find the biggest great white that exists because that's cool. That's what you wanna see. But when you are looking for the smallest great whites that exist in the area, it's like a completely different game.
[00:12:51] Madison: So we had to change the way that we did things, which was also super interesting because, you know, when you're stepping into new territory like that, and you're like, oh, we're gonna go shallow. We're gonna do this. We're gonna do that. It's always fun. You know, when you go to a place renowned for great whites and you're like, let's try something that nobody's safely done before.
[00:13:07] Madison: It's always, like, a lot of fun. Of course, when they tell you that's what you're gonna be doing, they definitely describe it differently. But that's essentially what we were doing.
[00:13:16] Luke: So you're saying it wasn't what you signed up for. Oh, well tell us the sketchiest thing that went on then.
[00:13:21] Madison: Oh my gosh. Okay, so there was just one dive that I will never forget.
[00:13:28] Madison: Because I spent the majority of my dive, ensuring that all my limbs were inside the cage and this cage was, like, tiny and I'm also kind of tiny. And I just felt like if it just lent one way, I would just fall out of one side or the other side. And it was a pretty fun experience. And the time that we were in the water in that cage was…
[00:13:51] Madison: It was like every single distressing, incorrect time to be in the water that I have ever described to anyone trying to avoid a shark attack. It was like going into dark, you know, it was, like, currents, wind pushing the boat. And we're just like, yeah, we'll just go down this tiny, tiny little cage. So that was very interesting, but oh my goodness, I will never forget.
[00:14:10] Madison: Just not being able to see these sharks until they're right next to the cage and, like, passing you. I'll never forget that. And it's pretty cool. ‘Cause when you're diving with like the older, more mature, great whites, they kind of know how to sneak up on you and juveniles are definitely learning this.
[00:14:28] Madison: So, it's a better interaction, in my opinion. You are getting closer. You are dealing with an animal that doesn't really have a ton of fear, but a lot of curiosity. So that always makes for a fun experience.
[00:14:54] Luke: So, you know, the adults we've already established are, you know, hunting larger prey, mostly mammals. You know, the elephant seals on the island are a really good example of that. Even the big tuna out there for some of the, you know, sub adults. What are the small sharks eating out there?
[00:15:11] Madison: So that's another thing that we were, like, really looking for, which was super interesting.
[00:15:18] Madison: Craig and Andy always identify everything that's good for a juvenile to exist, such as stingrays and the smaller fish. So they definitely have a different diet, which I found really interesting. So we had a bunch of ways of looking for those things as well, like the ROV Jaws Rover. I love that thing. I don't know how that thing's still alive, honestly, after everything that we've put it through.
[00:15:43] Madison: And then, like, one of the biggest problems we had though, even when we were searching for all this stuff, is at the end, we were trying to get the bigger sharks away so that we could get evidence of the little sharks. So most of our time was spent trying to do that, which was super interesting as well. But yeah, definitely looking for evidence of the… more like what the juveniles like to eat, like the stingrays, the smaller sharks, the smaller fish and that kind of thing.
[00:16:07] Luke: I'm curious with, you know… the operations at Guadalupe were shut down for quite some time because of COVID. And there haven't been that many boats going down as in a usual season. Did you notice anything different down there? Were the sharks more curious, more aggressive? Were they wanting to stay away from the boat? Come to the boat?
[00:16:26] Madison: It's a good question. Sometimes I wonder if they miss us. And then, I kind of think that, I really do think that our presence and our absence means very little to these animals. We are so lucky to be getting a glimpse of them at the times that they afford us that opportunity, but they really could not care less.
[00:16:50] Madison: They're too popular and too cool to care about us. So I feel like they were just their usual selves. There was a few sharks that, ‘cause I'd only been to Guadalupe once before, but there was a few sharks this time that were so insanely big. I had never seen great whites that size. And that was really crazy.
[00:17:09] Madison: And perhaps they were a little more, I guess, cautious because we didn't see them for that long, but when they did come past and check us out. Woah, these animals were massive, which again was like, how could a juvenile just be cruising knowing that that size shark is out here.
[00:17:26] Luke: Well, I mean, they have to find a way to cohabitate, if that is what's gonna go on out there.
[00:17:30] Luke: And I know that was a large focus of your teams' work out there. And Craig brought out the Rover. I mean, tell us the story of the Rover. I know you guys tried to kill it and get it eaten a bunch of times. And I think it turned into a bit of a chew toy for a while there. Right?
[00:17:44] Madison: Yeah, Jaws Rover's seen some stuff, I'm not gonna lie. I think it took more of a beating in Australia to be honest. But it still survived, which is amazing. They definitely show a lot of curiosity towards that ROV, which is amazing because we get to document these behaviors that we may not get if we are in the water.
[00:18:08] Madison: It's definitely different. Like they know that there's less risk in approaching that small ROV than there is in approaching the cage with the people in it. So, we get some really interesting behaviors from the sharks on that equipment. I think one of the biggest risks, and I really hope he's not listening, but the biggest risk to Jaws Rover is Craig's driving.
[00:18:27] Madison: A lot of the time, it's just like, it's so great. ‘Cause he'll put it in the water with such caution and then it will just disappear and then it's like a mission to get it back. And it's just gone on an adventure on its own. And you've got, like, this equipment, like so far from the boat and you know, there's great whites everywhere and you're like, okay.
[00:18:45] Madison: Everybody remain calm, but let's try and get this thing back to the boat as soon as possible.
[00:18:48] Luke: Craig's throwing caution to the wind. I just wouldn't believe it, no!
[00:18:52] Madison: Well, I haven't seen a driver's license, just saying.
[00:18:55] Luke: Yeah. I don't think I'd ask him for it either. So, you guys are out there trying to, you know, figure out…
[00:19:01] Luke: Alright, the juveniles are there and the adults are also there. How are they actually cohabitating? And I remember seeing some really interesting body behavior. And without, you know, me giving away the spoiler, I'm gonna let you give away the spoilers here, which is what we're here to do. We'll talk about, you know, everything that went on there.
[00:19:19] Luke: How do they talk?
[00:19:22] Madison: So there were so many examples of this that we actually witnessed. So I'm not sure which one you want me to give away, but the most impressive one... Can I talk about the screen? ‘Cause the screen was kind of wild! Only on Shark Week could you somehow manage to set up a projector underwater and play footage of sharks to other sharks.
[00:19:41] Madison: I think that was the highlight. So, we actually projected images of sharks doing kind of like defensive moves to other sharks, onto the screen. And, for a split second, we actually captured a shark having a reaction to this. So they've got their little kind of, like, body movements that they do, their little agitated things, like ways to show it.
[00:20:01] Madison: You know, they're not like, you know, people that'll just give you the silent treatment. Like, they make it pretty obvious when they're upset by your presence. And we actually managed to capture that. So, that was super interesting.
[00:20:11] Madison: I also noticed, when we were in the cage and we'd see a juvenile, they would definitely make way for the bigger sharks. Sometimes they would completely disappear and then come back later. So I think that they just kind of understand the pecking order and hopefully that remains so because I can't imagine them winning that fight.
[00:20:33] Madison: There's also moments where a small shark would go for the bait and, like, be actually like going for it and then a bigger shark would also make the same kind of move and the small shark would back down, immediately. So I definitely feel like they know their place, which is nice, but that screen and that shark's reaction to the other shark was the most interesting.
[00:20:56] Madison: So they definitely have, like the pectoral fin movements and everything that they do, to show other sharks, like, how they feel about each other's presence. Great whites are super interesting in the way that they all interact with each other.
[00:21:09] Luke: So what is the conclusion of this whole show? I mean, we've established that…
[00:21:15] Luke: It's likely that the presence of the blob, the presence of this warmer water is changing the, you know, migratory patterns and perhaps nursing grounds of the great white shark. You've shown that the new presence of juveniles is an established fact, that they're hanging out at Guadalupe.
[00:21:35] Luke: Which is, you know, very new. That definitely wasn't there a couple of years ago. And that they're maybe finding some way of cohabitating in the water and not getting eaten by the big boys while they're down there. Or the big girls, I should say, ‘cause a lot of them are female. What is the thought for the, you know, the future of Guadalupe?
[00:21:53] Luke: Are we gonna see juveniles there for a long time, do you think?
[00:21:56] Madison: I think we will. And I think one thing we forget is that sharks work together a lot better than people do, for now anyway, but we might also see some juveniles reaching an old age with a lot more scars and a lot more lessons than the old ones have.
[00:22:13] Madison: The biggest thing, I think, that we took away from this is that things are definitely changing. And that, for me, was like a big shock because the way that we have finally just even slightly started to accept the presence of these animals in the oceans, along coastlines all over the world is so fragile.
[00:22:35] Madison: And to think that the last 30 years of information we have from that is now going to change and the way that humans and sharks interact is now going to change, is a really scary thing. And it's something that we do have to take into consideration because, if juveniles will share space with large adults and take those risks, then what other risks are they gonna take?
[00:22:56] Madison: Are they gonna come closer to shore? Are they gonna go to places they never have before? Are they gonna go for different kinds of prey? Everything's changing! And the blob is just a small example of what the whole future of the oceans could be.
[00:23:08] Luke: You bring up an excellent point there because, what we’ve seen, at least in the literature, is a definite… let's call it segregation between where, you know, the sizes of sharks between, you know, juvenile and adult will hang out and they've got these sort of more traditional areas, as we know them. And now that they're kind of mixing it up, I think you're right. We will see some smarter juveniles come out of this, ‘cause they're being forced in through to run that gauntlet, you know.
[00:23:37] Luke: I mean, for a start, they're swimming that entire distance from land, essentially close to land, out to Guadalupe, which is not a small distance for a small shark. I mean, you've gotta imagine there's probably several of them getting taken on the way over there. And then, once they're there, they have to compete for food and space with great big adult sharks and learn their lessons really quickly.
[00:24:00] Luke: It also makes me curious about the operations down there for tourism. Because, as we look at, you know, the tourist boats, we have established really well that while the adult great whites will return to their normal behaviors, no problems at all, they really don't care about us. But if we turn up with a bit of bait, they'll go for it. Why not?
[00:24:22] Luke: But what'll happen when we see juveniles, who might be given that same opportunity, and they're in a very early stage of their learning. If they might be more aggressive or if they might, you know, associate more with boats. I mean, it's a scary ground to tread on because I really don't want to think about that for tourism but it's gotta be on your mind.
[00:24:46] Madison: Absolutely. I think there's a lot of truth to what you said. Like, the next generation is gonna be really badass because they're gonna have to go through a lot more and there's also, like, so many risks to the sharks, like with them disappearing on the way there.
[00:24:59] Madison: They're now being exposed to way more fisheries and other areas of pressure in the ocean that they weren't before. It's called a nursery for a reason. And these young dudes are like, screw it, I'm going out into the ocean before I know how to drive. And that's a scary thought for the sharks too. And then, yes, tourism is like… what's happened is like they've said, all right, school's out early.
[00:25:19] Madison: And now all these young people are just going crazy and terrorizing the village. So we don't know how it's gonna be and how it's, like, how it's gonna affect things. The only other place in the world that I have dived with juvenile whites has been Australia and these sharks had never seen people. And that was very evident by their behavior.
[00:25:40] Madison: And I'm kind of glad they've never seen people ‘cause they were nuts, which is cool. Like that's how they need to be. That's how they learn. That's how they develop their strategies. That's what makes them the big, beautiful, great whites that we want in our oceans. But now that they have a completely different area to be raised in, with a completely different future ahead of them, I mean, are they gonna be different?
[00:26:04] Madison: Are we gonna lose them to some kind of fishery? Are things gonna change with the way we interact with them? What's this gonna mean for the older sharks? There's all different questions coming out about this. And I think that all we can do is try and learn as much as we can as we go along. But this is definitely, like, one of the major signs that things are changing in the ocean.
[00:26:22] Luke: I'd be really curious to see if they hang out there all year long because the traditional, sort of, great white adult season, I'll call it. You know, the adult season for Guadalupe is typically from, you know, around August, maybe late July, August through till, say, January, maybe as late as February, you know, there's some wiggle room on both of those.
[00:26:43] Luke: But, you know, typically then they'll move off and we've seen lots of migration through the satellite tags and everything and that's fairly well established, but will the juveniles maybe return to their nursery or, you know, when the water temperature changes, will they go back to land? Will they set up shop in Guadalupe?
[00:27:02] Luke: You know, that'd be really interesting to find out. I guess you'll have to go back in, like, summertime and see what it's like.
[00:27:08] Madison: Oh, anytime, I would be stoked to! There are few places in the world like that. And yeah, the fact that it's now changing and we have a whole new set of things to learn is kind of crazy.
[00:27:20] Madison: But I took, like, so much footage on that trip, close up footage as well, like, portrait style shots of great whites. And I still to this day, when I watch clips from that trip and review it, there truly is no shark like the great white, where you can look at their eye and just know that they're like thinking.
[00:27:41] Madison: And they are so incredible. And Guadalupe is one of the few places that you can be that close to them. And they still, like, run the show. So, I really do hope that that way of life for them isn't under threat. And it will be very interesting to see how the next generation changes or what they do or where they go, or if they go.
[00:28:04] Luke: Yeah. I think Madi, you uniquely have the, you know, the experience and the advocacy for things like tourism, that have gone on and you heavily support the sustainability of tourism and human interactions with sharks. And I think, quite rightly, and I've been very impressed with the work that you've done.
[00:28:24] Luke: This thought that's just, as we're talking, is just nagging in the back of my mind. And I think I'm just gonna ask the question because you know, somebody's got to and somebody will. If we're down there, essentially, you know, baiting sharks towards the boat. We know it doesn't have a psychological effect on grownups. That's not a problem. Should we be training the juveniles to come towards the boat?
[00:28:45] Madison: That is an excellent question. And that's, yeah, it's a scary, scary question. It's one that I also… I don't know how to answer. I mean, we see people surfing, interacting in these nurseries every single day and never having issues with the sharks, but we see the opposite in certain nurseries in Australia.
[00:29:08] Madison: The juveniles are uncharted territory, for sure. I think we do have a responsibility to be careful how we engage with them. And I think that we are gonna be learning the effects of that engagement in the years to come. I think, at the end of the day, they are still great whites, just mini versions, and they do have the intelligence enough to know better.
[00:29:28] Madison: And if they can cross oceans and head out to the middle of nowhere and chill with big adults, then, they're probably capable of a lot more. And us baiting them to the boat isn't really something significant that's gonna change their life trajectory. But it is all new territory for us. That's for sure.
[00:29:46] Luke: Yeah. Yeah and I agree. It won't, you know, we've shown conclusively that, you know, that tourism is not significantly changing their long term behaviors but it does allow them to learn new feeding behaviors. We've definitely shown that with all different types of species, including the great whites. So, yeah, it poses this kind of, like, moral issue where I'm, like, obviously it needs more research.
[00:30:10] Luke: There's probably… there's no answer to it. And I think your answer is absolutely correct. We have the responsibility to, you know, to step carefully and perhaps establish new principles in the presence of certain sharks. But, yeah, when you've got these animals that are growing up, not surrounded by adults, but being forced to compete for food and being forced to learn this new body posturing and behavior.
[00:30:36] Luke: And we classify these sharks by their prey, you know, the juveniles by the small fish and rays they go after. The sub-adults by, you know, the tuna and larger fish and moving into mammals and the adults by the mammals. What will happen when the juveniles see the adults interacting with the baits and with people; it's a curious one.
[00:31:00] Luke: I kind of wanna be the person to find out. Like, let's just go dive for them and figure it out.
[00:31:06] Madison: I think that there's also, like, so much truth to that in other areas. Like, how is the fishing industry going to change the way that sharks move? If they can now cross oceans, are they gonna go to areas where the fishing is happening because of the abundance of prey?
[00:31:20] Madison: Are they gonna be drawn closer to other places? Is this more of a threat for us or for them? There's so many questions about it. And at the same time, as we're all thinking about how to keep people safe, we have to be thinking about how to keep the sharks safe from us as well, which is always such an interesting outlook.
[00:31:36] Madison: Nobody generally thinks, straight away, like, how do we protect the sharks? It's always about, okay, come on, how do we protect the people? But there's obviously both those sides to them! But yeah, everything's changing and, I don't know, it's definitely scary. Every time that we have a wonderful interaction with this animal in the wild, there's this, like, thought in the back of our head. It’s like, what does this mean for the future of the animal as well?
[00:32:04] Madison: Yeah, sometimes it's like living in Jurassic World, hey? It's very, like , is this morally correct? I don't know, but I love dinosaurs!
[00:32:13] Luke: But I love dinosaurs is probably the greatest quote from this podcast so far. Yes. Well, I mean, if you haven't seen it, if you're listening to this post Shark Week and you wanna check it out, the show is called Jaws vs The Blob and you can see it on Discovery Plus.
[00:32:28] Luke: It’s got some of the most fascinating behavioral study that I've seen in one of these shows because we're seeing juveniles to adults, their interactions with each other, and also the potential interactions they could be having with humans by showing them movies. It's absolutely crazy and I'm glad you guys went out there and did that, but what's next for you?
[00:32:48] Luke: What are you working on right now?
[00:32:52] Madison: Good question. I am going to be painting shark tags for the next week, thrilling stuff. Honestly, I don't know how scientists do it. They are so patient. And so, like, marine scientists are some of the most incredible people on the planet because I've only been, like, diving into research a little bit in the last month and I'm already so over it so, I mean, painting shark tags so they last for ages. That'll be my near future. And then back to Indonesia.
[00:33:18] Luke: Well Madi, your work has always impressed me. I've watched you, throughout the years, become the shark girl and you truly are. And thank you for joining me today. It's always great chatting with you.
[00:33:33] Luke: Alright, that wraps up another episode of Shark Week: The Podcast. Stay tuned to this feed for more interviews with shark experts that will give us the behind the scenes scoop on what's really happening out at sea. And we're keeping the shark passion alive after Shark Week is over, covering the Sharkiest current topics, talking to top scientists and experts and learning about the latest conservation efforts to keep this amazing animal from extinction.
[00:33:57] Luke: I wanna say thank you to Madi Stewart, AKA Shark Girl, star of the Shark Week documentary Jaws Vs The Blob. Thanks so much for joining us. Be sure to rate us five stars and subscribe for more amazing shark week content. I'm Luke Tipple. Until next time, see you later.