Luke Tipple chats with the shark experts in the Shark Week special, The Haunting of Shark Tower, Kori Burkhardt & Dr. James Sulikowski.
Shark Week: The Podcast, takes you behind the scenes of the Shark Week special, The Haunting of Shark Tower. Host Luke Tipple chats with shark experts and stars of the special, Kori Burkhardt & Dr. James Sulikowski. They recount their dramatic tales at sea working on North Carolina’s Frying Pan Tower. The haunted rig is home to an abundance of shark species, including the great white. Their most harrowing shark encounter came just before they had to abort their research mission because a 12-foot wave snapped their boat anchor.
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For more about sharks, head to SharkWeek.com
[00:00:00] Luke: Great. White sharks have one of the whitest geographic ranges of any Marine animal, but they do have their hotspots and favorite places such as South Africa, Mexico, and Australia. But the big surprise is seeing them in other unsuspecting places. Like North Carolina,
[00:00:22] Luke: welcome to shark week. The podcast I'm Luke tipple, Marine biologist, and a frequent voice on my favorite things, oceans and sharks. I'm stoked to bring the magic of shark week, right to your ears. Sharks have been a big part of my life for over 20 years now, studying them and diving with them all around the world.
[00:00:40] Luke: I guess that's given me some of the street cred to participate in many shark week documentaries throughout the years, and now to be your host. So whether you've never seen shark week before, or you've been a diehard fan over the 30 plus years, it's been around this podcast is for you. On this podcast, we're talking about great whites off the coast of North Carolina, and I'm delighted to welcome two stars from the shark week.
[00:01:07] Luke: Special, the haunting of shark tower, Marine biologist and shark expert, Corey Burkhart and professor at Arizona state university. Dr. James, Sakowski welcome to the, Showga happy to be here. Thank you. So Corey, let's start with you. Tell us what you do, who you are and, and what keeps you busy?
[00:01:26] Kori: Well, uh, I am a Marine biologist.
[00:01:28] Kori: I work primarily with sharks and primarily with tiger sharks, oceanic white tips. So, this was a really incredible experience for me. I'm based in Tahiti, which is a little bit different than North Carolina. So this was a huge adventure for me to get out, uh, pretty cold, but bigger sharks. I work with sharks for the last decade, and I've been really excited to get into shark week stuff.
[00:01:51] Kori: And as soon as I got the call for this show and heard about great white sharks showing up in North Carolina. I was on it, first flight straight out. I, I can
[00:01:59] Luke: imagine that was a, a pretty good call to arms for you. So, I mean, you, you say you got that call and that, that all sounds kind of cool and like the, the shark world for the people in the norm, whatever.
[00:02:08] Luke: But how does that actually come about you? You hang out Tahiti. You're obviously very qualified to be, you know, researching sharks out there, but how do you get a call to go out and hang out of North Carolina chasing down great whites.
[00:02:19] Kori: From what I hear, nobody else was crazy enough. That was kind of the thing ABC called me.
[00:02:24] Kori: And he is like, Hey, you know, I've got this crazy place. It's a haunted oil rig type situation out in the middle of absolutely nowhere, 25 miles off shore. There's great. Whites lurking. Do you wanna come?
[00:02:36] Luke: And of course by ABC, we're referring to cinematographer and shark week. Legend Annie Brandy, Casa Grandi.
[00:02:42] Kori: Yes. And obviously, first thing I said, Absolutely. And two days later I was on a flight, took 20 hours to get there. So it was unexpected and I was actually really grateful for it. ABC and I have worked together. I've flown him out to here in Tahiti to work with some crazy shark stuff. So that relationship and him, knowing that I can handle my own in the water with potentially big sharks.
[00:03:05] Kori: That's what got me out.
[00:03:07] Luke: Um, Corey, you, you left a, a beautiful country to come to check out a haunted tower in the middle of the ocean. Uh, tell me about that experience. Well,
[00:03:16] Kori: nobody told me it was that cold, that , so that might have changed my perspective. I got there with like, you know, flip flops t-shirt shorts and I was.
[00:03:25] Kori: It was freezing out. Um, but it was a really cool experience. Just getting to the platform itself was scary enough. You're writing this tiny helicopter and of course everybody's like, oh yeah, it's great. It's fine. And we actually had mechanical failure right before. So everybody was kind of rock paper scissoring on who would be that first flight to get to the tower.
[00:03:44] Kori: Nobody wanted to go on it first. But it was incredible. And this whole experience getting to, to meet James he's, somebody that I've, you know, of course read his work for, for a while, been looking up to him. So it was really cool to bring people from all over the world into one place. And. We got a big shark.
[00:04:00] Kori: So that was pretty insane.
[00:04:02] Luke: Now, when, when we talk about tower, um, set the scene for people a little bit more. It's it's, uh, a decommissioned oil rig. Is that right?
[00:04:09] Kori: It's a, it's old coast guard station, but it is built essentially like an oil rig. If you envision that in your mind, it looks a lot like that.
[00:04:17] Kori: It's about 20, 30 meters up. You've got these huge pillars that some parts now are so thin and rusted out. It looks. A Pringle chip. Like if it hit the right way, it would just collapse. So it was, it was sketchy, definitely, but it was out there. It was supposed to be a coast guard station. It's been decommissioned.
[00:04:35] Kori: Um, it was bought up. It was turned into this world's most haunted, dangerous accommodation, and they weren't joking. I mean, it was, it was intense. You land on the helicopter on the roof. The wind is just ripping and you realize how isolated you are. There was no, no connection to the outside world, anything we were there for a week and their sharks surrounding it.
[00:04:58] Kori: You got murky waters, rough waters. The only way to get down into those waters is this tiny little WeCh that the guy welded himself dropping you down that 20, 30 meters swinging in the air, like a giant cat toy. And potentially great white sharks underneath you.
[00:05:13] Luke: Okay. So take us from the, the idyllic warm waters of Tahiti to your brain.
[00:05:18] Luke: As you're getting lowered on this janky little crane miners basket thing out of the bottom of a rusted out tower to go and find
[00:05:27] Kori: sharks. See, that's a thing. They told me it was a basket. There was no basket. It was just like a piece of, it was just like a, like, Thing it, I don't even know what to call it.
[00:05:36] Kori: It looked like a rodeo pony that you sat on with just handles. And it was about maybe a few inches wide and there was nothing to clip you on. So you're just sitting there holding on for dear life, lowering down. The winds are swinging you around and you realize you've got all this scuba gear on, you're holding the camera and it's like, if you fall, you're probably gonna break your spine.
[00:05:55] Kori: So I was more scared of that. Initially going down into the water for the first time, I was more terrified of the entry. But then once I got in the water, you realized the visibility is only about 10 feet. So if there is big sharks out there, yeah. You're probably not even gonna have any idea until they're right up on your fins.
[00:06:11] Kori: So that was pretty intimidating as well as the fact that we could only dive at slack tide. Once that current rips out, you can't get back to the tower. You can't get raised back up. There's nothing else for 25 miles. So there was a lot of things factoring in it. Wasn't just, oh, there might be big sharks.
[00:06:28] Kori: It was, oh, there might be big shark. And you might not see them until they're right on top of you. If you don't get sucked away by the current, if you make it down this giant rust bucket
[00:06:40] Luke: or die from how tall was it from it, it's kinda hard to tell
[00:06:43] Kori: on camera, but yeah. Yeah. So it was, it was about 20 meters, like 66 feet for, for those in the us.
[00:06:49] Kori: So it was quite tall and you're lowering that way and you can feel the cable just like cracking and creaking the entire way down. It was pretty intense. And then doing that at night as well, doing it a day was scary enough. And then doing it at night was just a whole nother whole nother beast.
[00:07:04] Luke: So yeah, if you haven't seen the show and you really should, but, uh, the way I thought of it was, it almost looks like a, a capital L attached to.
[00:07:12] Luke: A cable that's lowered from a very sketchy looking rig and Corey's sitting on there. I imagine it's had some kind of little saddle thing on it in full scuba gear, carrying camera and everything. Getting lowered 60 feet down in high winds, into uncertain waters at night, hoping to find a great white shark.
[00:07:30] Luke: Do you really like ABC that much, that you thought that was a good idea?
[00:07:33] Kori: I told him to never call me again. I was . I was, I was like, this is ridiculous. That's the last time I pick up the phone. When you call, we've been friends for a really long time, we've done a lot of crazy shark stuff together, but honestly, I'm so glad I did it.
[00:07:47] Kori: It was such a thrill. It was so much fun. Seeing the sharks at night, it was something that. It was once in a lifetime, honestly. And I'm really glad that I did it.
[00:07:56] Luke: So James Corey's had her sketchy experiences out there. Um, you are working out there a lot. You must have some similar ones.
[00:08:02] James: Yeah. I mean, when we were filming for the shoot, uh, it doesn't surprise me.
[00:08:06] James: Corey was like dealing with tons of weather. I mean, we were out. Uh, imagine being overnight on a boat and the seas are so rough that we broke the anchor line and started drifting away. Like everybody's like next thing is we're being capsized and we're swept away. Perfect storm. We're done. So it was not pleasant.
[00:08:24] James: These are 10 to 12 foot seas, uh, right close to shore. So it was, it was pretty hectic and scary. So the whole mantra, the aura of this haunting of shark tower really was affecting everybody. So it's all came to a head, you know, at the very end. And Cory's gonna say, man, that look, I don't wanna spoil anything, but we literally caught that 12 foot shark.
[00:08:45] James: Within the last five minutes before we had to leave. So it all came together. The rough diving for her, the rough weather for me and our crew, everybody working together pulled it all off. So sketchy is, is hell for everybody. But man, the payoff was insane. And
[00:09:01] Luke: with your workout there, I mean, that sounds absolutely horrific.
[00:09:04] Luke: Um, but also kind of fun at the same time. yeah. Well,
[00:09:08] James: lemme tell you about this. It was in the middle of the. Right when this thing broke I remember coming off the bed, hitting my head on the ceiling, uh, and like, what the hell just happened, you know? And then Bobby, Earl's going crazy, you know? And he is like, now we're outta here, you know?
[00:09:23] James: And so we headed home.
[00:09:25] Luke: And how regular is that experience for you in those waters?
[00:09:29] James: Uh, it's pretty, I mean, North Carolina, the conditions can change literally like within five minutes, you know? So when we were out there, it was supposed to be beautiful, flat, calm, next thing, you know, it's 12 foot seas, so it's just so unpredictable.
[00:09:41] Luke: And how often are you guys actually in the water? Is it mostly sort of long line stuff or fishing stuff that you're doing or does your research involved getting in the water and diving as also, uh,
[00:09:50] James: Yeah, no, a lot of our stuff is top side. Um, so a little flip of what Corey does, we're catching and tracking and tagging.
[00:09:57] James: We are developing new technology with the company, AI medical, to do underwater ultrasounds. And that would be really cool Corey to the stuff that you're doing. So just, you know, as the shark's going by, you get an ultrasound of, of the shark today was pregnant or not man, super cool stuff. But yeah, I've been on some dimes where it's particularly at night where, you know, the lights go off and then they come on and you're surrounded.
[00:10:19] James: Giant sharks or maybe I, I remember one time where there was a, a lemon shark, literally light came on and it was two inches from my face. I was looking at its eye and it was looking at my eye. I'm like, this is absolutely crazy. So it
[00:10:32] Luke: was fun. Now I can't imagine on this, uh, remote location that there's five star service and a spa.
[00:10:38] Luke: Um, how does it actually function as a, as a hotel? You
[00:10:42] Kori: know, uh, I kind of question that myself after staying there. but I will say the electric blanket. Was essential without that, I think I might not have made it, uh, next to my bed. When I looked over, I could see the ocean through the floor because it had rusted out.
[00:10:57] Kori: And there was parts where you kind of had to test where you were walking first, before you actually put weight onto it. So I think for anyone to stay there, accommodation wise, one, their insurance must be out of this world two. They must be adventurous. There's no way anybody looking for luxury would go there.
[00:11:13] Kori: However, It was awesome. We were shooting fireworks off the roof of it. It was a really great experience. And I, I was really glad that I went.
[00:11:22] Luke: And you said you were out there for a week and that it was surrounded by sharks. What sharks were you seeing typically on a, on a daily dive basis?
[00:11:29] Kori: Mostly the sand tigers, as well as sand bars.
[00:11:32] Kori: So we were hoping for some bigger sharks, some bowls, maybe some tigers. A great white. That is what brought us out there is they have a 360 camera with a live feed mounted underneath the tower, and a great white was spotted on it. So the hope was we would see some bigger sharks, but. The sharks that were, there were still amazing.
[00:11:49] Kori: There was a ton of 'em the amount of life fish. It's basically creating an Oasis for any kind of Marine life out in that open ocean. So they all just gathered there, circled around. It was really incredible. A lot of food source, a lot of structure, a lot of potential for big sharks. I think it's a really great place.
[00:12:05] Luke: And it sounds like it's just kind of hit or miss whether you get the, the larger ones that might travel through such as a great white, um, James, is that this is kind of your new hood out there. Is it fairly typical that you see a great white in this area? Well,
[00:12:18] James: that's what we're trying to find out. I mean, there's been a ton of sightings, uh, which kind of brought us there.
[00:12:22] James: We know that they're there. Right, but we don't know in what quantities, how large this population is when they're there, when do they leave? So those are things we're trying to figure out. And, uh, look, it was, it was pretty epic to land a 12 footer, right. And to put some serious technology on it. And we were super excited.
[00:12:40] James: Look, I mean, it's a group effort. I mean, qu came out. I mean, we're working with Atlantic white shark Conservancy. Dr. Greg Schmo done a bunch of stuff on shark week. So I've got his tags on there. I've got my tags on there. So it was a really incredible experience, man. And I got put a plug in for Bobby Earl man, that guy he's an amazing captain.
[00:12:58] James: He put us on sharks. Like it was nobody's business. I mean, he was all in and I don't think without the whole team effort, man, it was a total maximum effort for everybody. We wouldn't have got that shark to the boat. It was incredible.
[00:13:11] Luke: So I I'm curious why North Carolina would typically not be thought of, you know, as a place for white sharks.
[00:13:18] Luke: I mean, we know they're up north they're well studied up there. We know they're down south they're well studied, you know, existing in Florida waters, even why not in the middle? Well, it's one
[00:13:25] James: of those things where, you know, are they just passing by? Are they hanging out? Yeah. Right. And we really wanna figure out what's the story there, you know, is it a, a, you know, cause water changing climates are changing.
[00:13:38] James: Fish are moving in different areas. Are they gonna take advantage of that? White sharks are great. You know, they're homeo themic, they don't really, aren't dictated by water temperature. So too warm, too cold, you know, they've got a preference, but look, if there's food there they'll hang. So that's one of the things we're really interested in.
[00:13:52] Luke: Explain home themic for.
[00:13:55] James: yeah, that's a shark that can regulate this body temperature a lot like us or a tuna. Most sharks are we call 'em, you know, the lay term is coldblooded. Um, but their body's dictated the temperatures dictated by the water temperature. So it gets too cold. They gotta move. They have to leave, um, white sharks, uh, falling, get grouped that don't have to do that.
[00:14:14] James: Um, which makes him super cool. Again, man, we were there in January earlier, hoping to catch one, but the weather stunk. So cord man, if you were. That would've been super cold, you know, we're used to cold weather, so March was great for us, but, uh, you know, it's just a lot of new learning and connecting the bigger picture,
[00:14:31] Luke: which is cool.
[00:14:32] Luke: So to answer kind of the next logical question that people might have, where you've got an animal that can regulate its own body temperature. So it doesn't care if. As much about the ambient water temperature, why would it change locations, food,
[00:14:47] James: right. Looking for food resources. And we think one of the things we were using for our chum was tuna rat and tuna, and they loved it.
[00:14:55] James: Um, which was. Great, um, for us because it kind of really brought 'em in, but also begs the question. Like, are they there falling the tuna, typically you think of the white shirts eating seals off the Cape Cape Cod or, or some other place, but there's not a, a large seal population there. So they're eating something else.
[00:15:12] James: You know, whether it's tuna, whether it's other sharks, again, um, they're taking advantage of a location based on a resource and trying to figure out what sharks are there beyond white sharks is something we're really interested in too. And it's really interesting what Corey said. Because when she was down there, I mean, they saw a bunch of, you know, you know, there's some, maybe some sands and sandbars and, and other things.
[00:15:34] James: Um, but if you go to these other areas, man, we were catching hammer heads and you know, every other species you can kind of imagine, which is super cool. So how's, it all fit
[00:15:42] Luke: as another story. And it does make sense that as they're moving through for whatever. You know, stimulus they might be following or whether they're traveling through, or maybe, you know, hanging out in areas that are yet to be discovered that in Oasis, like the one co is describing maybe one of those stop off spots.
[00:15:56] Luke: Now, Corey, you mentioned that there was, you know, video of a great white out there. And I think there's been more than the one, right? There was a, there was a video from the, um, from the actual tower, but there's also been user submitted videos of great whites in that area. Is that right?
[00:16:10] Kori: Yes. A lot of spear fishermen going out and having these encounters with sharks, um, not at the tower, but nearby on the Rex.
[00:16:17] Kori: So it's kind of that same hint at wanting structure, something to gather this Marine life into one concentrated area. It's gonna make it a lot easier, especially if they are doing these giant migrations from north to south, everywhere in between. It's a lot easier to find all your food in one spot than to search kind of haphazardly every, just every direction.
[00:16:36] Kori: So finding structure tends to bring a lot more food source potential.
[00:16:51] Luke: So James talk us through that project that you're out there, obviously you're, you're trying to find sharks trying to get tags on 'em. What is the, the end result in your mind of that research?
[00:17:00] James: Yeah, I mean, one of the things we're really interested in is. Is that area in general, we are finding that there's a lot of pregnant aggregation of pregnant females from multiple different species of great whites, uh, not great whites, right?
[00:17:14] James: Not white sharks, but for other species, right. Hammerhead, sandbars, sand tigers, you know, so why not the white shark and that's why we were there. Right? I mean, it's an elusive species to catch. It's difficult to catch. If anyone says, ah, let's go grab and catch a, a white shark. They're crazy. You know, it takes a lot of time and effort to do that.
[00:17:33] James: I mean, we were on the water almost four full days and we were lucky enough to catch two, um, one at the very end of the day. And. It's magical, you know, it, it really is. Um, and Bobby put us on that on an area. Um, you know, the chum, we were, we were working hard. I mean, we were working like, you know, we're staying out there literally.
[00:17:53] James: And we living on the boat, fishing off the boat quarters are cramped, Caesar, rough it's cold. Um, but it's well worth it, man. When you see that 12. White on the line right next to the boat. And you're putting a sat tag on it is incredible. I mean, Bobby, Bobby E we named it Bobby E after Bobby Earl, uh, of the really bugging, I mean, because he deserved it.
[00:18:15] James: It was amazing. It was incredible. Uh, and Bobby E now, man, that, that shark is an epic tracker. I mean it left North Carolina again, it went off the Bronx. It's totally insane. It's off the Cape. Now it's off main. I mean, it's mind blowing to people to watch this shark. Change its habitat go after, you know, different food sources.
[00:18:35] James: Uh, and the question is, you know, where is he gonna go? Is he gonna go back to North Carolina? I mean, it's a mature male. Where's he gonna make? You know, can we find the females there? Those are the next steps, next questions. And it's totally insane. And
[00:18:48] Luke: what type of period of time was that? Uh, you, you know, since you put the tag on to where it's now up in Maine,
[00:18:53] James: so that tag went on, I think April 2nd and it's pinged off the coast.
[00:19:01] James: It was in CA bay off Portland, Maine, uh, this morning, seven o'clock this
[00:19:04] Luke: morning. I that's pretty fast. That
[00:19:08] James: is a long way. Yeah. I mean, it is a long way. And what's interesting is that his movement was very directed and that's kind of what we see for sharks that are on a mission. And Bobby, I mean, you can imagine he hung around North Carolina, then all of a sudden he's, you know, You know, off of New York and then he is off of the Cape.
[00:19:28] James: Now he's off of Maine look going from Maine to Massachusetts, you know, a couple hundred miles. They do that in a day. That's easy for them, you know, it's just like, you know, us going to the, you know, the Boston, you know, so for them traveling piece of cake, and now the question is where's he gonna.
[00:19:49] Luke: So when we talk about climate changes, we're talking about, you know, long term trends in, in actual measurable climate change.
[00:19:55] Luke: We can also talk sort of on a more micro level on seasonality and stuff. What are the white sharks looking for? Obviously they're chasing food, but when you say there's a more abundance of food, is that correlated with warmer temperatures or cold temperatures? Like for the people at home sitting there going, oh, there might be white sharks around.
[00:20:13] Luke: Should they be thinking that when it gets colder or warmer?
[00:20:16] James: Yeah. You know, that's another great question. It all depends on location, right? So off of Maine and off of Massachusetts, it's warm weather, let's say, uh, June, July, August, um, seems to be the peak times when they're there, when people are in the water.
[00:20:32] James: Off North Carolina. I think it's more, those sharks are, are transitioning from the colder new England water down to the warmer North Carolina water. And so you get the sort of snowbird effect, but again, it's all really food dependent. I mean, white sharks really don't have to move, but if there's more of a resource there for them, then it's like us, you know, if, if we are in an area where there's lots of food, good, smorgasboard why leave, you know, why go out and insert for something else?
[00:21:00] James: You know, climate's changing environments are changing. We need to understand, you know, the impacts of that on, on what sharks are eating and, and how we might be able to protect these
[00:21:09] Luke: areas. Is there any history that you know of that, uh, and perhaps Corey, you might know this as well in your research for the show, but is there any local history of negative interactions with white sharks in North Carolina?
[00:21:20] James: Uh, no, not that I'm aware of. I mean, when you look at, you know, white shark interactions, um, North Carolina is not. Typically one of those places. And so that's another thing we know they're there, people in North Carolina kind of know that they're there, but. You know why and for how long, and you know, those are questions that are need to be answered.
[00:21:43] Luke: People in the water in North Carolina, it's great surfing, beautiful beaches. Is it something they should be concerned about in that? Great whites might be transiting through their waters and perhaps hanging around look
[00:21:53] James: sharks are polarizing, right? I mean, people are, most people are terrified of them. Um, some are fascinated with them, but the reality is is that the interactions are so low.
[00:22:02] James: Right. It just becomes about education, being a surfer, doing all this cool stuff in the water in North Carolina, should you change what you're doing? Probably not. We just educate yourself. Right. You know, listen to lifeguards, listen to fall apps like productivity and look at the research and what they're telling people who knows.
[00:22:19] James: I mean, now I'd say that we don't know enough to understand the interactions that might occur five years, 10 years from now as things sort of change. Hopefully we know more and we can be more, add more education to that kind of
[00:22:31] Luke: equation. Uh, Corey, um, building off of what James was talking about in, you know, climate change affecting sort of shark movements.
[00:22:38] Luke: Is, are you seeing anything in Tahiti or is it just always beautifully blissfully warm down there? It
[00:22:43] Kori: is always beautifully. Blisfully warm. However, we have seen a shift in sation migrations over the last few years. We have only seen one sperm whale siding in French, Pia within the last 12 years. And we've had maybe eight sidings in the last year and a half.
[00:23:01] Kori: So we're seeing a shift in these bigger citations coming through. We've never had a great white shark, but that would be something for sure. Um, before the sharks, we're, we're not seeing too much change there, but I would say the citations, we are seeing a pretty big difference. Um, we are losing a lot of our, our islands of the last that I checked.
[00:23:19] Kori: When I talked to the research center on our island, we lost a meter and a half of beach just this year on our
[00:23:25] Luke: island alone, a as in, from the water's edge to the new water's edge or in vertical height,
[00:23:30] Kori: not vertical height from the, the horizontal waters edge. So lost a meter and a half this year, which was a record.
[00:23:37] Luke: Has there been, uh, obviously you've done some of the research for it. Has there been any results you can share from that, that study of the black tips?
[00:23:43] Kori: Um, it's gonna take a while. So we sampled 306 black tip sharks this last year. So we were out every day with our spear guns and it was actually pretty tricky because once you.
[00:23:55] Kori: Sampled one shark, the other sharks all took off. So it was a very patient game and they, they said it would probably take about a year and a half to process all of that and kind of get the data together. And it's really neat because we only sampled adults, but we also had another team using little Gill nets, sampling the juveniles in the, in the mangroves and in the, the nursery area.
[00:24:17] Kori: And they did the same sampling 10 years ago. So they'll be able to compare that data between the 10 year difference. I,
[00:24:23] Luke: I don't wanna gloss over kind of the feet that you just described to us there in that you went out, you said it was 360 something adult
[00:24:30] Kori: 306 sharks. 300 adult black
[00:24:33] Luke: tips. Yes. And are you freediving and spearing them?
[00:24:36] Luke: Yes.
[00:24:37] Kori: All free diving.
[00:24:39] Luke: So for the people listening at home, that's pretty incredible. In what period of time did you
[00:24:43] Kori: do. We started in December, January 20, 20 to 2021. And we finished in the end of June. So it was pretty quick, but we were out every day, all day. Um, I was actually pregnant. When I was doing it.
[00:25:00] Kori: So it was, uh, pretty good sight seeing these spear fishing with sharks when I was, you know, six months pregnant, but we got the job done.
[00:25:09] Luke: Yeah. I'm curious as to your, you know, mental process and, and, you know, expert eyes, you're underwater down there. And you mentioned you work with, you know, sharks in Tahiti and stuff.
[00:25:19] Luke: Can you kind of walk us through your actual, you know, career with sharks a little bit, just so people can really get a handle on, you know, your analysis of the location.
[00:25:28] Kori: absolutely. So a majority of my work is done in water. Uh, I do do tagging as well. Genetic studies that require capture, but primarily we try to work with everything we do in the water with sharks, French Polynesia is a shark sanctuary.
[00:25:42] Kori: Even for research, they don't want the sharks being caught. So we have to get creative in how we're gonna do these same projects, these same questions being answered through non-traditional methods. For example, if we wanna take genetic samples, we can't capture the. Take a fin clip. We use a modified spear gun.
[00:25:57] Kori: We dive with the animals, we're getting up close with them and face to face. We have to use a modified spear gun with a hollow tip to take these samples outta the shark as it's swimming. So a lot about behavior interpreting the social structures of these sharks, how they communicate with each other, how they compete over resources.
[00:26:13] Kori: We work mostly with tiger sharks. Uh, we have two different populations that we're studying for the go. Seeing how their movements change through photo identification, how their body rates are going, mating, reproduction, things like that. And the oceanic white tips, we actually just started doing actual tagging through traditional methods of satellite tags.
[00:26:32] Kori: So very similar to what was done to the white shark in this episode, but for oceanic white tips, sharks. So a lot of in water stuff, working with behavior, shark handling a lot of time, other researchers will contract. I have a nonprofit foundation for. They'll contract us out to collect data, collect samples, to send out to universities that aren't able to reach to Haiti.
[00:26:52] Kori: So it's been a really exciting thing to have this job where people will call and say, Hey, we need tissue samples. We need DNA. We need this, we need that. And I get to go be the one to go jump in the water, collect this data, collect the footage and send that back out. Sounds like
[00:27:05] Luke: pretty much the dream job here, James.
[00:27:07] Luke: It's awesome. That's why I wanna go to Tahi. right. Uh, sorry. When you say you're collecting 'em for the government, what is their.
[00:27:15] Kori: their interest is primarily how humans and sharks overlap. And it's really nice because the French Polynesian government isn't focused in a, in a fear way. Like, oh no, we have to protect the humans.
[00:27:26] Kori: It's oh, no, we have to protect the sharks. How are we impacting the sharks? So for example, right now I'm working with a government on a government. Project to track the oceanic white tip sharks. And the reason for that is during our humpback whale season, we have a ton of whales coming in. People are swimming with them and they're encountering these sharks.
[00:27:44] Kori: Well, now we've grown a lot from tourism and you have 50 boats out at a time. So we're seeing how the, the behavior of these sharks are changing. As more and more tour operators are encountering them, entering their zone. There's more simulation. There's 200 people in the water at a time. There's 50 boats with engines.
[00:28:01] Kori: So we're tracking the behavior to see how their move. Differ between the off season. When you have zero boats around the island to whale season, when you have humpback whales, you've got pilot whales, you've got more dolphins and you've got all these humans flopping around in the water. So we're trying to see how these tours are impacting and overlapping with shark behavior, to make sure that we can do it in a positive way.
[00:28:20] Kori: That's sustainable for sharks and humans. And it's not a negative impact on either species. Well,
[00:28:26] Luke: is there a scenario in that research where you come back and say, actually, you know, humans are negatively impacting the sharks or the sharks are coming around more because of the humans. Yeah. Obviously those are, you know, very broad questions and very complex to answer.
[00:28:39] Luke: But is there a scenario where you come back to the government and say, look, I've found something that kind of messes with our socioeconomic plan for tourism to the island.
[00:28:48] Kori: There is. And. That's the potential. Um, that's what we're trying to figure out, but I have a lot of respect for Tian government because they always put the wildlife first and it's been really interesting to see how that has shifted.
[00:29:00] Kori: So we've already had the discussion of what, if this data comes back, how are we going to manage this? And one of the suggestions was having zones where if we can see hotspots where these sharks are specifically, you know, critical zones, key areas, we, we don't do tours in that area. It's a, you know, we've got a whole island, we've got thousands and thousands of miles of water around us.
[00:29:19] Kori: We can find whales outside of these critical areas. We can stick closer to the reef where these sharks typically don't venture close to. So there are ways to limit. We also work and we do training for all of the ocean guides that go in the water in the. And we actually do a training on shark behavior, how to minimize negative negative situations by preventative guest safety and also trauma response in case there is something that goes wrong.
[00:29:43] Luke: James, uh, tell us about your work. You're always here at, at Arizona state university. Um, what is your specialty and what, you know, what are you publishing? What are you working on? Yeah,
[00:29:53] James: no man. It's uh, exciting stuff out here. We, uh, well first we study sharks all over our place, right? So north Carolina's like a spot for us.
[00:30:01] James: Um, but we do stuff in sea Cortez, you know, new England Bahamas, uh, Gulf of Mexico. So we're kind of everywhere. Um, but what we do is sort of develop new technologies to look at, uh, reproduction, linking that to movement and how. uh, sharks are looking for specific areas, right. To give birth and how that might be affected by climate change.
[00:30:21] James: So, um, you know, we use a variety of different techniques from an ultrasound to, uh, you know, tags on the fin to actually tags inside mom, uh, to see where babies are giving birth. So we're constantly kind of pushing the envelope and developing new new technologies. So. North Carolina is one, a new spot for us.
[00:30:37] James: And we were super excited to be out there working with all sorts of different species, but obviously white sharks are, are super cool. And we know they're out there and we're hoping to, uh, you know, slap some new tech on, on the, on that
[00:30:49] Luke: species. So here's a chance for you to, you know, do a, a service for your college there and, and give them a bit of a plug.
[00:30:55] Luke: But how on earth of Marine biologists researching sharks from Arizona?
[00:30:59] James: I know man, Arizona state will look, you know, it's the, uh, it's the most innovative univers. And anything's literally possible there. And if you get a, a good background support, then literally anything can be accomplished. And that's kinda how we feel.
[00:31:13] James: And we've been able to accomplish a ton while we've been there. Like I've been there for three years and we've gotten into new areas like the sea Cortez, you know, we've developed this birth tag. We, we develop underwater ultrasound, um, working with great companies. So the future's looking great. You know, I'd love to go to Tahi.
[00:31:31] James: That's for sure. You know, some cool stuff going out there with Corey. So, um, you know, we just love to be
[00:31:35] Luke: out there on the water. Oh, that's awesome. Is, is this now is ASU a place for, uh, students to be considering if they want to, you know, progress in their Marine biology career?
[00:31:44] James: Yeah. Yeah. So we've started a new movement.
[00:31:47] James: It's called ocean futures. Um, and it sits within our, our sort of global future entity. And it's a great spot because it's growing like crazy. We just we've got, you know, a place in Hawaii. We've got, we just. Bought a lab, um, in the Bermuda Institute, uh, ocean science, we're looking at connecting Mexico. So there's a lot of really cool and amazing stuff going on there.
[00:32:07] James: And a lot of really things, some cool stuff. May we talk about maybe bringing an aquarium on campus? So, you know, we're the ocean futures, uh, in Arizona state. There's big things headed that
[00:32:17] Luke: way. Dude. Sounds like you gotta get out to Arizona, but I'd and you got to, I think I'd prefer to join you and, uh, get out to Tahiti with Corey, but so what what's next up for you, Corey?
[00:32:26] Luke: Is it, uh, more projects in Tahiti or are you traveling
[00:32:29] Kori: still in Tahiti? So finishing up our satellite tagging on the oceanic white tip sharks, we've got 10 tags total to put out. We've put two out so far. So that's our priority right now is getting the rest of those tags out. After that, maybe heading to the mal.
[00:32:44] Kori: Deves not quite sure. We'll see when ABC calls.
[00:32:48] Luke: James and Corey, I wanna thank you for your time today. Um, if you haven't seen the show you're haunting of shark tower, it's one of those really fun shark adventures where it's just about going out and finding the animal, getting some good research done and watching absolute professionals out in the field.
[00:33:03] Luke: Overcoming some. Really difficult and challenging scenarios. And, uh, it'll inspire you to get out there yourself.
[00:33:14] Luke: All right. That wraps up another episode of shark week. The podcast stay tuned to this feed for more interviews with shark experts that will give us the behind the scenes scoop on what's really happening out at. And we're keeping the shark passion alive after shark week is over covering the Sharkies current topics, talking to top scientists and experts and learning about the latest conservation efforts to keep this amazing animal from extinction.
[00:33:39] Luke: Be sure to Raider five stars and subscribe for more amazing shark week content I'm Luke tip. And until next time see you later.