Luke Tipple speaks to Riley Elliott aka “The Shark Man”, scientist & star of Discovery’s Shark Week Special Clash of Killers: Great Whites vs. Makos.
On this episode of Shark Week: The Podcast, Luke Tipple speaks to Dr. Riley Elliott aka “The Shark Man”, scientist & star of Discovery’s Shark Week Special Clash of Killers: Great Whites vs. Makos. They discuss his research into mako sharks and how they interact with great whites when their migratory routes overlap off the coast of New Zealand. Plus, Luke tells the remarkable story of a Greenland shark which managed to eat a moose.
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[00:00:00] Luke: On today's podcast, we'll discuss the unique ways in which humans interact with sharks, some good and some not so good. You'll learn all about a very ambitious Greenland shark that managed to eat a moose. Yeah. You heard that right. And will be joined by shark scientist and star of Discovery’s Shark Week documentary Clash of Killers: Great Whites vs Makos, Dr. Riley Elliot. He's gonna discuss the mysterious Mako shark, which are the fastest sharks in the world. All that and more is coming up on this episode of Shark Week: The Podcast.
[00:00:35] Luke: I'm Luke Tipple, marine biologist and a frequent voice on my favorite things, oceans and sharks. And I'm stoked to bring the magic of Shark Week, right to your ears. You know, sharks have been a big part of my life for over 20 years. They're a critical part of the ocean and a conduit to better understanding life on our planet. So, whether you've never seen Shark Week before or you've been a die hard fan over the 30-plus years it's been around, this podcast is for you.
[00:01:08] Luke: We start today's pod with shark speak and as usual, we start with a slightly absurd headline that makes it go. Wait, what now this is one of those really cool stories that highlights just what sharks are capable of. And it's a very little known species. So get this. Here's the headline: moose-eating shark makes a splash now.
[00:01:29] Luke: You wouldn't be the first to look at that and say, what is a moose eating shark? Yeah. And our moose are massive. Now, if you've never seen a moose in person, you definitely have to see a moose in person they're bigger than a car. Like, can you imagine a shark actually going up and eating a moose? How does that even happen?
[00:01:45] Luke: Well, This happened back in 2013, when a 16 year old boy named Tobias ball was exploring the Newfoundland Canada beach with his dad. And they came across an eight and a half foot Greenland shark, and this was washed up on the beach. They thought it was dead. They thought, wow, this is really cool. This is a super.
[00:02:02] Luke: Old shark, just chilling on the beach, but it's dead until they kicked it with, I mean, nudged, it's probably a better way to put it. We don't wanna make them seem like they're out there kicking dead sharks around, but they nudged it with their foot. And the shark moved its tail low and behold. They had a shark that was in a bad way, washed up on the beach and it had a huge hunk of moose carcass hanging out of its mouth.
[00:02:25] Luke: Now this actually got a bit of attention. Then another guy came and kind of helped them out. They figured let's try to save this shark. The first thing they thought is why is this shark here? It's probably, they thought choking, which is somewhat of a plausible thought. Now, if you don't know, Greenland sharks are typically scavengers, it's not unusual.
[00:02:46] Luke: For moose to be in those waters either because Mossa hunted and once they're dissected and the meter's been taken off, the hunters will sometimes discard them in the water. So that's how we get a Greenland shark coming up out the depths where it usually exists into fairly shallow water, probably taking a great big hunk of rotting moose in its mouth and perhaps blocking or occluding or somewhat, you know, moving its Gill around in such a way that it felt.
[00:03:14] Luke: Unable to either dislodge it or to breathe very well or whatever, but whatever happened, it was weakened enough that it washed up on the shore. Now, these good Samaritans, they found the shark. They managed her after a very long time managed to get it back in the water and low and behold, this creature that can live over 200 years old, managed to swim away.
[00:03:34] Luke: And it was just fine. Now that got a huge amount of attention. They were onlookers all around. They were all cheering and applauding. And I think that that's such a cool story. People helping sharks out. We're learning about the vulnerabilities of sharks to being a little bit glutinous at times. And we've got a little studied species that has been exposed to people on the beach and managed to make it away safely while everyone got to learn just a little bit more about them such as apparently.
[00:04:00] Luke: They have a taste for moose. So watch out moose, don't walk near the water. The Greenland sharks are coming to get you. That'll be the next title you'll see in the mirror or something next week. I'm sure. Now the next story we have is Mako shark grabs fish tied to rope, tug of war ensues from USA today, July 21st, 2022.
[00:04:18] Luke: Now that sounds ridiculous. I know. Why would you have a tug of war with a shark, but it actually turns out that this is somewhat of a, a cool story because it involves a friend of ours. This is Keith Poe, he's a Southern Californian shark Tager, and he's literally wrestling a 12 foot maker shark that has grabbed onto a piece of bait on the end of a rope.
[00:04:37] Luke: There's no hook involved whatsoever, and he's actually out there on a tagging mission to find these species. And what we see is just the beauty and power. Of this very large shark, as it does not wanna let go of the bait. Now, it, it might come as a surprise to you to think that, you know, sharks, aren't just out there eating all the time.
[00:04:56] Luke: They actually don't need to eat all that much. But when they do, when they commit, they're voracious about it. And when there's an easy meal, just sitting there that shark will not wanna let go. There's not a chance. So the video's actually pretty funny because you got Keith there, yanking on the rope, the.
[00:05:14] Luke: Yanking back. And eventually Keith actually wins a shark. Let's go and disappears for a little bit, but it highlights this very beautiful species. And it's something we're gonna learn a whole lot more about with one of the world experts in Mako sharks. Dr. Riley Elliott, who's coming up next.
[00:05:35] Luke: Today, I'm stoked to welcome a special guest. One of our favorites on shark week is Dr. Riley Elliot. He's a star of discovery's shark week, special clash of killers. Great whites versus makos. Also known as the shark man. Gotta ask him about that. Welcome to the show, Riley.
[00:05:49] Riley: Yeah, good day, Luke. I was a pleasure mate.
[00:05:51] Riley: Thank you for having me. Yeah, you're
[00:05:52] Luke: welcome, mate. So what got you started with makos? Where does the passion come?
[00:05:56] Riley: It's ironic, actually it's because I did my PhD on blue sharks. Um, and I started that 2010, um, and a colleague of mine now, Mike Barner, who's, uh, you know, underwater Cameron from way back in the day, he gave me the opportunity to go tag the blue sharks cuz he was filming some stuff.
[00:06:16] Riley: He said, if I could be a Dick end on the boat, maybe there'd be some time to catch some blue sharks and tag them. And out of that, I started to realize that blue sharks and Mako sharks, they, they live symbolically together because they occupy the same niche, but morphologically and behaviorally, they're the total opposites.
[00:06:33] Riley: One's a glider and one's a jet fighter. And, and, and unlike the great wider, the Marco, we're talking about clashes. These two operate totally differently, which means they can exist in the same niche, but when you're diving them with blue sharks, it means you get MAs too. And what got me into them. Blue sharks are the easiest funnest, cooler shark in the world to swim with.
[00:06:52] Riley: Um, you gotta be hands on with them. Otherwise they will bite you, cuz they're just so curious, but you've got this. What we call slow motion, nightmare of a blue shark. You know, it's just relatively easy to control, but then you get, if the polar opposite of maker shark turns up, it's like this fast lightning that you can't keep track of.
[00:07:09] Riley: And then if you get multiple animals, it's just absolutely cared. So what got me into the market was it was always the secondary challenging aspect that would turn up when I'm trying to work. And I had to learn how to, uh, not control that at all, but basically learn how to coexist with that pressure because when a Marco turns.
[00:07:28] Riley: It is the most intense animal. It will bite everything. It will smash into everything. It is so hyper charge and intense and I'll generally get out. So it can sort that out with the engine and the prop and the other sharks, and then it'll calm down and, and the hierarchy's been established and then you get in, it's all good.
[00:07:44] Riley: But then another Marco turns up and chase it all lights up again. And. What will happen is the smallest shark will generally become the, the most dangerous because it becomes opportunistic and flighty. Um, but at the same time, you gotta get face on with the big one that just turned up. And again, I'll generally get out, let them establish their hierarchy, and then I'll kind of like slip into it.
[00:08:04] Riley: Um, but that curiosity grew obviously, and, and the further offshore you get the bigger the Marcos and blues get generally. And for everyone out there just to put a, a, a pin in this one, it's. That is how you say the sharks name, Marco. And it's a moldy word, which is the indigenous people of New Zealand. Uh, it means tooth fish, um, and it's a hard word to pronounce, so don't get me wrong.
[00:08:30] Riley: Cause we all say makeup, Marco and. Uh, it's like we say potato potato,
[00:08:33] Luke: but, but I wanna, I wanna get this right, Marco. Is that right? If you think
[00:08:37] Riley: of the O at the end as a or
[00:08:39] Luke: a, so it's okay. It's hard. It's really,
[00:08:42] Riley: you gotta like, awe like put your mouth like an WL or
[00:08:45] Luke: yeah. With, with respect to the MA's the Aussie's column maker.
[00:08:48] Luke: So I'll stick to that, but I, I acknowledge that I'm wrong. yeah. Yeah. I'm man enough to say when I'm wrong there, but, uh, our accents are weird. Um, so. After all this study. And I think it's hilarious that, uh, you got into makos because they were kind of in, in the way of your research. literally, yeah. It's like that, that, that suitor in the corner, who's just continually just like, Hey, what about me?
[00:09:13] Luke: What about me? What about me? And then suddenly that's, you know, that's the winner there.
[00:09:17] Riley: I got into Shas cuz I'm a surf. Um, as, as you probably did too, I imagine. And, um, I did too. Yeah. And it's, it's funny. You kind of wish you didn't in a way, because now I can't, I can't say ignorance is bliss because I'll, I'll, I'll actually calculate the risk everywhere I
[00:09:31] Luke: go surfing and well, taking it back past, like beginning surfing.
[00:09:34] Luke: What really got you into sharks to start with? Ironically,
[00:09:37] Riley: I was studying dolphins. Um, I wasn't, I didn't have my slogan there called the shark man. I was the dolphin man, so to speak and. But where I was studying dolphins, it was in Flin, the bottom of new Zealand's a very Jurassic park wild place. No, one's around.
[00:09:51] Riley: And it's a few. So it drops super, super deep into the ocean. And you're swimming around like trying to do your dolphin research as I was. And, uh, you just look down into this dark of this and you know, that stuff down there can see you, but you can't see yet. And my education at the time was like, most people's just jaw.
[00:10:08] Riley: I knew it was great white country down there. And, uh, one day, as I say to the school kids, I saw it coming up, man, it's coming up full bore. It's fins are out. Its mouth was open. I Peter, my, and I shot the surface. I braced myself at the jaws poster and it was like a one foot long school shark. And I just like.
[00:10:24] Riley: Laugh like that. Yeah. And then I say to the kids, but then I was ashamed because here I am trying to be a scientist, trying to figure out the facts of what things are to better understand them. And I realized, I knew nothing about sharks and, um, and, and I ironically went back to university and on the wall was a flyer to go to ocean's research internship, which we see on shock week a lot with enha Janari.
[00:10:46] Riley: Um, and I went for a six week internship to work with great whites. And from the first day I saw one there, I was like, this is what I want to do. And I've never looked back. I've worked hard, I've been privileged for opportunities, but at the end of the day, passion, my passion slapped me in the face. And ironically, it's like, the thing is a surfer.
[00:11:06] Riley: You don't wanna see and you don't talk about, and, and unfortunately for my surface side, you know, ignorance is no longer bliss, but I. That's the way it should be. If you're gonna go play in the wild environment. Yeah. It
[00:11:18] Luke: sounds like you're working your way up. The predatory food chain there. You're like, Hey, I'm to dolphins until a shark got in the way.
[00:11:23] Luke: Then I was into blue sharks until a Maco got in the way then I into makos until a great white gets in the way. What's next? Yeah.
[00:11:30] Riley: Well, I tell you from New Zealand where there's nothing on land that can hurt you at. You've gotta go into the ocean to get that predatory cycle. the biggest, the biggest thing on this island is like a
[00:11:41] Luke: small wild pig or something.
[00:11:42] Luke: So we saw you this year messing around with makos as well as great white, eh, yeah, it was,
[00:11:47] Riley: uh, I guess trying to put the two, two Titans up against each other in a way, you know, um, myself and people like Joe Rome worked pretty hard to get the Marco, you know, up on the pedestal with the other top three. Um, I don't know if any of you have ever swam with a market shop before it's got an intensity that really is unrivaled by any of those other three.
[00:12:07] Riley: Um, and there are massive ones. And, uh, for me, following market shop migration in New Zealand and seeing how climate variables kind of have pushed animal migrations, uh, to further extents, um, it became quite apparent that there was an opportunity that, that two of the Titans, the, the Marco and the great white might be actually overlapping with each other.
[00:12:28] Riley: And. For me, not only is that a great UFC fight, you know, but that is, um, biologically very relevant because these are two quite different yet very highly related animals.
[00:12:39] Luke: Yeah. And what was the result of that? Basically,
[00:12:42] Riley: it proved to be very, very challenging, and that is because these animals where we're trying to follow their migrations is out in the open ocean.
[00:12:49] Riley: And this is off the east coast of New Zealand. Um, it is super raw out there. This is where the roaring forties meets the tropical cyclone. And it pinches off the Eastern coast of the north island of New Zealand. And, and we started in Stewart island. Uh, it was, it was peak summer season and it was actually really nice whether believe it or not, we only had two days to, to shoot it, which if you've ever been Stewart island is not a good amount of time.
[00:13:13] Riley: Um, it, it can change rapidly, but we scored two amazing days. There had amazing sharks and saw that at that point in time, at the end of summer, they are fat. They are big and God, they were desperate just to fuel up. Then they migrate and we know that, um, but what we don't know and what hasn't really been investigated through shark weeks or research in general is, is what they do when they leave these seal colonies and, and migrate and, and knowing then what the Marco migration was doing.
[00:13:40] Riley: Coming from the north, moving down with moving warm water, uh, was that these two could intercept and, and we basically chased these two migrations. The Nast weather I have ever been in, um, to, to basically reveal that they do intercept, but very unique predator, avoidance behavior was observed in that the great white almost gives way to the Marco migration by going into a, what we call a zombie like state.
[00:14:08] Riley: And, and we revealed this not through, uh, seeing them together, but we, we gathered some actual, very unique insight from video footage of a Fisher. Who saw one of these ma massive, great whites migrating and, and as boat was driving within feet of it, it didn't react at all. And it was, it was fully just turned off at the, at the brain basically.
[00:14:27] Riley: And biologically, we investigated that couple that with some tag data and really, you know, theorized that they're shutting down their cognitive system, the great whites, because they're migrating and they're trying to save energy. The laminated sharks, uh, the warm blooded, quasi ones of the great white, the Marco and the poor beagle and the salmon, um, they're warm blooded so they can turn on a brain so they can act like a predator at speed and, and attack.
[00:14:52] Riley: Um, but that's very expensive. So if you're migrating, you're not trying to do those complicated things. So. That's why we theorize the great whites shut down that brain. They do a diving behavior that, that acts to avoid the Marcos because they are in full flight mode. They are hunting Marlon swordfish.
[00:15:08] Riley: They are geared up and they're pumped up. And we saw that in the flesh, out at the bank. So it was very insightful in the sense that. The seemingly top dog, the great white, the bigger of the animals mostly was actually being very conservative predator avoiding. Um, but I think that they do come in contact because we know these great whites have to pit stop and feed on these migrations.
[00:15:33] Riley: And the ran banks is probably one of those spots. And we, we had anecdotal evidence from guys we met and went with that. They've seen these two sharks interacting. There's still definitely some, um, you know, leftover work there. I would really like to pursue. But one thing that you don't see in these shark week shows and Luke you've been on these, you probably know it more than anyone is you face so many hurdles when you try and chase nature.
[00:15:55] Riley: And we ended up being stuck behind wide island, which is an act of volcano where we knew we shouldn't anchor cuz it's spewing sulfuric acid out of it. And it's floating all over our boat cuz we're in the leave of the island to try and get out of what ended up being 60 knot winds that we had to overnight.
[00:16:10] Riley: And like we were all growing men just about crying and wanted to go back to our partners and, you know, because it was terrify. But, um, it's the things that you do and the work that we do and the privilege that it is really to go chase nature. But man, it was
[00:16:22] Luke: hard. This one, honestly, it was so hard. That sounds incredibly difficult.
[00:16:26] Luke: Now there's a, there's a lot to unpack in there. yeah. So, but no, that that's great. So let's, uh, I mean, with your breadth of knowledge, particularly with these species, we're talking about some of the, the heroes of shark week, the favorites that everyone has up on their wall, especially the kids out there who are like lasting after getting out and getting, having.
[00:16:45] Luke: Big ocean adventures. Like you're describing that apparently you are blubbering your way through, but , uh, let's talk about some basic stuff. So the difference between great whites and make sharks, particularly with what you're discussing, where you're talking about shutting down brains versus not having to, and the energetic benefits of both.
[00:17:05] Riley: Yeah. Well put simply the biggest difference between these two animals is, is the environment they live in and where they predominantly feed. So great white. To be honest, quite easy to find because you go to a seal colony and they're there munching seals, as we've seen and discovery channel has shown so amazingly over the decades.
[00:17:23] Riley: And they do that predominantly when the seal pups are being weaned from their mothers, which means they stop giving them milk and they have to learn how to go out to the open ocean, start handing fish. Um, and these seals at one year old don't really know what a great white is, and they have instinct and a bit of like follow the leader.
[00:17:42] Riley: But that is the vulnerable seal, which is what the great work capitalizes on. Now. The Marco shark is far different. It actually hunts a far naer praise species than a seal being, you know, 12 foot long swordfish or Marlon with big swords on their face. And we saw some dramatic insight of those animals in this show.
[00:18:01] Riley: And, and even we got even scared when we were in our own shark cage, cause it wasn't designed for these swords coming at us. And, um, that, that big difference means that they hunt very differently. But ultimately both of them have evolved a similar warm-blooded system, which like us. You need warm blood to keep an engine like a brain running.
[00:18:20] Riley: If you're doing complex tasks, it's why, uh, reptiles have to warm up on a rock, so to speak so they can get that body warm enough to operate. Um, so the great whites in the marker both do this, but they can shift where they move that warm blood depending on what's being required. So if a marker was in full hunt mode and it's trying to like use its binocular vision to target a fast moving highly dangerous piece of.
[00:18:46] Riley: It will be using its brain super, super supercharged, and it will be driving a lot of energy, um, through that organ in order to calculate that likewise, with a great white, when it's hunting a seal, but when a great white then goes cool, I'm full, the seals have disappeared. I now just need to swim from a to Z, which happens to be thousands of kilometers or miles, um, from New Zealand to the tropics.
[00:19:09] Riley: It seemingly what we learned from this video footage, which is the first time I've ever seen. Seemingly is not reacting as a great white, we usually see is which would be, you know, avoiding or at least being intrigued by something around it. This great white did not move an inch as this huge boat came right up within feet of it.
[00:19:28] Riley: And then eventually the great white kind of almost came out of its days and saw the boat and it turns away and it's like, whoa, what the hell was that? But the big difference scene was the intensity of the marker sharks, cuz they are in full hunt. It was more akin to the great whites when we saw them at the seal islands down in Stewart island.
[00:19:46] Riley: But this one that had been seen migrating in the open ocean was a totally different animal. And I think, you know, that's the amazing thing about shack. Like it gives us an opportunity to go discover new things and, and that was a very novel piece of information. Yeah.
[00:20:00] Luke: And. You've obviously got tagging data from great whites and seeing their migratory roots, understanding that going from perhaps a seal colony to a, another area that might be energetically beneficial, or trying to find, you know, perhaps a mate in some area, but we know that they're regularly traveling.
[00:20:15] Luke: So did that video lend. Any, um, support to the theories that the tagging data showed beforehand, cuz in the Tagg data you'll know that they're swimming slower or just be lining it somewhere or diving up and down, you can see predatory behavior going on. Right? Yeah. I
[00:20:34] Riley: mean the one thing sharks are good at is, is energy efficiency.
[00:20:37] Riley: Like they're the. To the boss of it. And, um, we have great data tagging data from New Zealand, scientists uhlin and Duffy, Malcolm Francis, um, which shows, and we showed it in the show where like the behavior of the animals when they're at sea islands is at the surface. They're hunting animals that breathe air.
[00:20:53] Riley: So like, it makes sense. As soon as they start migrating, they were doing these huge, big, deep dives, these repetitive, deep dives. And there's a whole bunch of theories for that. And this is how, you know, novel shark science is. As we're still learning. I did my PhD in exactly the subject and there's still contention in it, which is, are they diving?
[00:21:13] Riley: Cuz they're gliding and they're using it as like an efficiency thing to save. But we see that the descent rate is not one that would be associated with gliding. So then we think, oh, are they predating? And they go below depths of where there is food below the deep scattering layer. Is it, then that they're actually counterintuitively going deep to get into cold water because it slows their metabolism and therefore makes them use energy.
[00:21:37] Riley: Um, well sometimes they're not going into those dips and then why come. And the other one is predator avoidance. Are they trying to like, basically stay under the radar, so to speak. And, and I think the footage that we saw showed, you know, some, some like firsthand insight in the flesh of what this animal looks like when it is migrating.
[00:22:00] Riley: And that was very much in an energy efficient mode. Although this one was at the surface, um, I think it, it gave another piece into the puzzle, which is that it's likely a combination of all those factors. I just said, why these animals move the way they do. They've done it for hundreds of million, millions of years.
[00:22:17] Riley: They would've figured out the perfect recipe in how to be most
[00:22:19] Luke: efficient. Sure. But wouldn't a great white sort of chill in this, you know, zombie-like state just open it up to more predation.
[00:22:27] Riley: Yeah. Well that, that was, this is why science is great. Cause you go back and forth like this in a conversation. Um, I think that is why perhaps you'd think it going at.
[00:22:37] Riley: Would be, um, avoiding anything cause most foods at the surface, but this shark was at the surface. And so it may be that the great white just has such confidence in itself, or it has a detection mechanism, like a radar going on that if something does come into its area that it's, it's biologically attuned to wake up to, it might do that.
[00:22:56] Riley: And they have the lateral line and things like that that might literally be waiting for that type of predator frequency versus a boat, which would be far different. There's there's so much that could be possible here. What is the way that science works is we add little pieces of fact on top of one another to move the general understanding of, of whatever the question is.
[00:23:14] Riley: But, um, yeah, bottom line, Luke, there's, there's so much to learn still and, and who knows, but that, that was insightful for me to be honest, like the payoff would've been great. And this show to see these two animals bashing each other up and who was the boss? But nature is much smarter than that. You don't see, you know, lions, uh, tackling tigers because they've evolved to be in two different areas.
[00:23:36] Riley: There's generally only one chief, you know, in a, in a, in a biological realm. And I think that occurs in these realms and there is overlap, but they avoid or change their behaviors that. They don't need to compete. And that would be smart evolution. Now I'm curious
[00:23:51] Luke: if they are cohabiting, at least at sometimes the same areas of water, but the Mako is so much faster and so much more ferocious.
[00:24:01] Luke: Why wouldn't they try to take over some of the great whites turf and hunt the seals. Yeah, it's
[00:24:07] Riley: a great question. And I think to be honest, they probably did. And, and, and this will be a long-winded answer to this, which is how I generally do it, but it's, it's, it's it's context and it's theories as we evolve through seeing things.
[00:24:19] Riley: So for example, in California, Marco sharks, there's quite a few large ones. And we, I think later on, we might talk about Keith Poe. You have, um, tug war with one, the mark, the big Marcos there are known to hunt seal. and that's, that's like not a common understanding of marker sharks. You know, they're more PLA hunters, but marker sharks.
[00:24:38] Riley: Historically there's been catches of ones that were 21 feet. There was one in, uh, Italy, I believe in the med, which now is, you know, a desert for sharks generally. So Marco shark used to get as big as great whites. And it's the fact that we fished them so hard. But the average size of a Marco now is probably four to six feet.
[00:24:56] Riley: Um, so you imagine a Marco shark at 20 feet, the same size as a great white their teeth evolve like a great weight from needles and just cutting triangles. And there is, um, fact that shows Marco do hunt. Seals. So I believe that those two definitely probably competed, um, unfortunately for the marker, it's not been protected.
[00:25:17] Riley: It's been fished out in fisheries, uh, and unlike the great white, you know, which has got protection, it's the markers numbers have dropped, whereas the great whites have gone up. So it's kind of an unfair playing field. And I, I really do think that those two probably did compete when they were allowed to be at the same level.
[00:25:45] Luke: Uh, uh, earlier in the show we were talking about, um, our friend Keith Poe, who found a, you know, a fairly large Mako given today's standards. As you say, you know, 12 feet shouldn't be necessarily an anomalistic large Maco, but it is these days. And, uh, he was displaying the ferocity that they attack with by, you know, the sharks, just not letting that piece of bake go.
[00:26:08] Luke: With your experience characterize for us the, you know, attack behavior and nature of the make show. Yeah.
[00:26:15] Riley: Well firstly, knowing Marcos, uh, that's the most polite girl I've ever seen. I mean, geez, she, she, she didn't even, she didn't attack that. All, she just came and said, this is mine. And then Keith didn't wanna give up the bonito on the end of the rope.
[00:26:29] Riley: And, um, that was a very polite interaction, um, to give you context. Seeing a shark, a 12 foot marker. Like that is very, very hard to find. Keith's really good at finding them there. Um, but it is rare. That's why we don't see it often. I got lucky enough, uh, and make a nation to bump into them, but in the, which was in 2020 for shark week, but in my wrecky trips for that, um, I was out diving off mayor island, uh, without a cage with Sean Henricks and this was me pushing my limits, you know, like I.
[00:27:00] Riley: I hadn't dove with, you know, big mature makers before. And I've worked my way up through, you know, 15 years being taught by people like Mike Barna. Who's the first ever to free dive with these guys and, and made a shark show back in the day on it. Um, and they are a very dangerous animal because imagine going around the seal colony and swimming around.
[00:27:21] Riley: You just wouldn't do it because you know that they come up and ambush and hunt there. Well, a Marco was so quick because its sea island is out there in the blue water and it has to ambush from, you know, 300 feet away. So it has to cover that ground very quickly. And Sean Henricks and I were swimming with this big Marco, it was, you know, 11 foot.
[00:27:39] Riley: It was a beautiful interaction. We had about two hours with it and, and I said to him, I've got a gut feeling, mate. I, this has been too good for too long. I think we should get out. He's like, no, mate, no, this is, this is fantastic. This is why, why would we get out? I was like, look, just trust me. We've got a gut feeling.
[00:27:52] Riley: We swim back to the boat. We turn around before we get. And, uh, we see this beautiful marker coming towards us on the surface. And then from below an absolute tank of a thing is coming up full ballistic speed. And we just instinctly jump, turn out, get into the boat, turn around, expecting a atomic bomb of blood, but because the marker shark has lateral lines, it could detect the shark coming.
[00:28:14] Riley: It got out of the way. But two minutes earlier, we were there. We were smaller targets. We never would've seen it coming. And one of us would've been sliced in half and that's just the way the Marcos hunt. They cut something up, see what it was later. And, uh, Bob's your uncle. So my point being is swimming with these large marker sharks is a whole different kettle of fish.
[00:28:35] Riley: And that's because they are so dangerous, so hard to find. And to be Frank, you'd have to be an idiot to go do it without decades of experience. it, it, for me, it's as dangerous as it gets. And that's why you've probably seen me evolve my diving with sharks and getting a bit old. You get a bit smarter, I'm using more cages with those animals and at least prospects ones, because typically throw a rank.
[00:29:00] Riley: I don't wanna die. You gotta realize sharks as lovable. And as much we stand up for them. They're a highly capable predator and it's about respect. You know, like this is how they hunt and understanding their behavior. You, you need to calculate for that. And this isn't a one on one looking at each other, the eye contact, all that stuff.
[00:29:19] Riley: They come up first and hit and then ask. So bringing it into context to Keith Poe, um, that was a shark that's probably been circling around for a while. There's not a big floating animal on the surface. Like it expects a swordfish to be. It's coming for an investigation that goes, oh yeah, I don't mind taking that, but it's not gonna exert a lot of energy other than thrashing around trying to get this.
[00:29:39] Riley: Um, because basically it's just playing there. But what I do love about what Keith shows is, is that is a. Big Marco shark. Now you can get in and swim with that and sure. You might be fine. You might get the right girl, but it's the one you don't see. That is the danger. And if you're playing out there in the big Marco territory, they're hunting stuff.
[00:30:00] Riley: That's three times your size.
[00:30:02] Luke: But, uh, with all this data that is revealing itself and apparently. Us seeing that makos are, you know, on the decline, which they are and could potentially be in different spaces than they're being forced to be right now, if they weren't being fished, how do we get the data needed to make a, a case for protecting them?
[00:30:22] Luke: Just like we are the great whites. Yeah. It's it's
[00:30:24] Riley: it's I literally just had a meeting last night with our government entities here, cuz we're, we're trying to achieve that now with a, a government review of our policies. Long story short is, um, I learned a lot about the Marco through my PhD on blues because they're caught in the same fishery and the una long line fishery and all of the problems, the blue shark faces the maker was too.
[00:30:43] Riley: Um, but the Marco's being exploited in a, in a, in a worse way, cuz it's meat is valuable as well. And it also matures and breeds a lot slower than a blue shark. So that is why it has been, you know, face demise a lot worse than a blue shark cuz the blue shark is the most populous. Big PLA shark in the world.
[00:31:02] Riley: It, it breeds like a mouse, you know, in, in shark term, so to speak. Um, whereas the marker is more like a great white, it breeds very slowly, so well,
[00:31:09] Luke: let's define that for people. I don't wanna step on you there, but, um, get specific about it, you know, blue sharks, their breeding cycle versus a makeover, for example.
[00:31:18] Luke: Yeah.
[00:31:18] Riley: So a blue shark grows really quick, like, uh, you know, almost two feet a year. It matures at about, you know, five to eight years at about six feet in. And they can have up to 135 pups, whereas a marker shark is more like a great white, it grows slower. It's only mature at about 12 feet and that takes 30 odd years.
[00:31:40] Riley: And then it'll have a handful of pups. So you're just you, you're hitting two different levels of what we call for ity, which is the rate of reproduction. And, and what that's meant is the same fishing. Been put on both these animals through tuna long lining, shark fitting, et cetera. Um, but the reproduction rate of a marker is, is, you know, a 10th, if not a hundredth of a blue shark.
[00:32:00] Riley: So its populations have crashed a lot more. And the solution to this in general is getting better data to manage these because on a global scale, the data that we use to manage it is basically how many are reported by the fishermen that they catch. And that. Known one to be, you know, one, 100 of what's reported.
[00:32:20] Riley: It's known to be biased and it's known to have a lot of data errors. And what we're trying to do in New Zealand now is really ambassador for cameras on boats that are basically not a camera to spy on the fishermen, but look over the edge where they pull in the fish and enforce. Then the rules that you try and employ things like live release of sharks.
[00:32:40] Riley: It also counts then all the sharks that are caught and it gives us the golden child of, of data gathering where you know exactly how many animals are coming in with that, you can then make what are accurate and, and beneficial management policies. So. That is the way forward in my eyes, because it's the ill transparency of the high seas fisheries, which is causing demise, not just the sharks, but to all bycatch
[00:33:04] Luke: species.
[00:33:04] Luke: Is it then possible for any one country to have a significant difference in the protection of the MAs
[00:33:10] Riley: massively, massively? And that is why New Zealand. I really try to push this country to be a leader. In New Zealand, they have, they're very culturally important to the moldy people. Um, and for that reason, I think we have tried to campaign their best protection.
[00:33:26] Riley: But what you realize is even in a country like this, where we're generally seen as progressive, you know, the lobbyists from the fishing industry really put the brakes on us, for example, supporting them, even in cites being listed there yet the rest of the world majority did. And they got passed on that, which was great.
[00:33:42] Riley: So we had to jump on the same ship, but. The example, being that if you catch sharks here in New Zealand and you I'll treat them, or you hurt their population, those are the same sharks that they're moving to say, Polynesia and are tropical waters. And in Polynesia they're seen as gods. They're protected.
[00:33:59] Riley: Um, and so therefore one country's industry can definitely affect the, the, the greater population. And that is why the great white shark received international protection was because Nicole, the chick shark swam between New Zealand, Australia showing interconnectivity between, uh, jurisdictions. and that's what gave it the, the, the, the justification for global support, but yeah, who's,
[00:34:21] Luke: who's
[00:34:22] Riley: catching them.
[00:34:22] Riley: Yeah. Well, uh, I've got mate two fish in New Zealand waters, and if they go to the edge of our exclusive economic zone, which is 200 nautical miles, there will be fleets of Spanish, you know, long liners, uh, just sitting on sea mounts, fishing it out, going to the next sea Mount. And, uh, not just Spanish, but, uh, you know, a lot of the Asian countries come down.
[00:34:41] Riley: Basically where they fished out in other areas of the world, the pressure then moves to the places that haven't been fished out. And the south Pacific is a very big ocean compared to other oceans. And there's really only New Zealand down here in the bottom of it, you know? And so there's a lot of terrain to cover, but where you get, uh, aggregations of these large projects is generally where you've got sea mounts and they tend to be around the periphery of, of, you know, continents or islands.
[00:35:06] Riley: So there's a lot of pressure and that's why I think, um, you definitely need. Into jurisdictional protection and agreement, but as we've seen in anything in life, that's a hard thing to get, uh, for whatever you're talking
[00:35:17] Luke: about. Yeah. We we've, we've spoken about that before where you know, it's possible, but is it possible within the time we have left?
[00:35:25] Luke: You know, it it's, you know, as, as the. The swell of support increases while we're also depleting the stock, you know, is it's that weird little race that we're in to see if we can kind of win it, but it's also guys like you who are out there getting the data that, you know, gives us a, a, an advantage in capturing the opportunity.
[00:35:46] Luke: We have to, you know, save these species, which is bloody awesome, mate. I think, um, what
[00:35:50] Riley: is the coolest thing? And people ask me, oh, why do you do shark week? Aren't you like a real scientist? And I say to people. Shark week is the biggest platform for communication of things, about sharks in the world and that's undisputed.
[00:36:04] Riley: And so if you have a message that's important, um, you should convey it through the largest platform you can, which is the huge reason why I do. And I'm passionate and I privilege and humble to do shark week because. I've also learned through people like David Burg, that if you create beautiful stimulating visual imagery, people can connect empathetically with something they may not understand, or is that complicated.
[00:36:26] Riley: And with sharks showing people these big Marcos or out of beautiful blue water and a human interacting with them, you know, gives an empathetic connectivity that otherwise is not possible. You. As an example of parallel, it's why aquariums exist. You know, they're not ideal, but people can't go out into the open ocean and see a market shack.
[00:36:45] Riley: Now you can't see one in aquarium, but I can show you one through what we do. And that enables a connectivity. Then when we say, look, you should help protect this animal. People can actually. justify that cuz they feel it
[00:36:59] Luke: agree. I mean, people need to see these animals and learn about what the animals do for, for their own environment.
[00:37:06] Luke: I mean, uh, the, the oceans are critically important to every single person on the planet and the health of those ecosystems is just as important even if you're not dipping your feet in the water. So yeah, I, I couldn't agree more, uh, you know, shark week is, is it is the megaphone that we need for these animals.
[00:37:23] Luke: Um, But also it's recognizing that much of the real work is happening, not on camera it's guys like yourself going out there and spending days and days and weeks on the ocean, collecting the data, doing the work in the government or offices and, you know, protecting these species, which is amazing. Why do you justify going out and doing this other than just a PR campaign for sharks?
[00:37:46] Luke: Short
[00:37:47] Riley: answer, because I never lost the nature kid of me and it's just bloody fun. Um, you know, I. For a background story on this to create a shark week show is incredibly difficult. Okay. We just had shark week, but for the last weeks, even before that, I was having to sit on my chair and come up with other ideas to do.
[00:38:04] Riley: And this is the way shark week works. You, the scientists or production companies come up with ideas, pitch into the head to shark week. They pick which repertoire of than they want. And then you gotta go make it happen for me. I've always based those ideas on what I've seen. That's interesting or things I know I should be able to deliver.
[00:38:21] Riley: That are up my alley, which are credible, scientifically enhancing tell a good story, which is important, but also help the sharks that were ultimately, you know, exploiting for entertainment, so to speak. And that's a big logistical thing. But what I've been really stoked to grow in is, is the first time I did shark week, I was a student at university and I don't know how they found me, but.
[00:38:44] Riley: Can you come and narrat rate this one with now who I admire so much, Greg Scomal, who I didn't know who he was at the time, but it was like counting down the top 10 deadli sharks. And to this day, I still have no idea how I got that role, but it was my entrance. I got like 500 bucks and a free meal and I was stoked cuz I was a student and.
[00:39:00] Riley: Now to grow through just through pure intrigue of telling stories. I almost enjoy the producing side just as much as I do presenting the shows, because it's the challenge of, of having to learn, how to tell good stories and, and having to make them, you know, resonate with the audience, which is shackle.
[00:39:20] Riley: And, and that's why you gotta appreciate the spectrum, which we see in shark week. As far as the ranger shows from say, Jack asked to me, which is. There's a whole bunch of people out there who don't know anything about sharks and they need perhaps a palatable entry point, which may be Jack a introducing them to sharks.
[00:39:37] Riley: And then they're on the train and then they see, oh, the next one. And they may then see a few more shows and you slowly capture them in as opposed to the easy sell people who already intrigued by science and animals and see, say perhaps one of my shows and go, oh, what shark week is that? I think it's really important to realize that the megaphone we're using is TV.
[00:39:56] Riley: It is entertainment. And I think sharks are really privileged that there's a shark wheat because, you know, lions and elephants and all them, you know, having hard times in the wild too, and don't have their own week. So I think it's, it's, it's really cool and it, but it is very hard work and I think that's not acknowledged enough.
[00:40:15] Riley: And shark week goes out and it airs. And then these guys, you know, work for discovery channel and run this stuff, have to get straight back on the train, into creating magic again. And it, it is very difficult and it is such a changing environment. It's hard to keep up, but, um, I've had an absolute wild ride.
[00:40:33] Riley: And I really hope I'm like the Greg scandals or if you're still here and, you know, the, the late fifties or wherever he is at, because it's incredibly
[00:40:39] Luke: fun. I, I, it's such an incredibly valuable tool, but having done all the work this year, I hear you're off to, uh, have some fun on your own, right?
[00:40:48] Riley: Yeah. Um, right now in New Zealand, it doesn't always look blue water and sunny skies, um, especially with, uh, climate change right now, it's pouring with rain.
[00:40:55] Riley: It's been horrible and our island is flooding and people are being evacuated from their. And now I feel guilty for saying that I'm going to Indonesia for a three week surf trip. Um, but it is well deserved because it's been a, you know, head down in the office for me for the last four months after, after delivering my last shark week show, uh, prepping for the next ones, which are some very exciting shows I've got coming up, which are fantastic with, uh, with great whites.
[00:41:20] Riley: And, um, yeah, it's just, oh, it's, it's just good times. And I'm just, I'm so grateful for this. I get asked a lot from people. How do you get into this industry? To be Frank there's no magic path. I think the, the, the commonality between yourself, other colleagues of ours and shark league, um, is. You just never gave up on what you were interested in and people say, oh, you can follow your passion.
[00:41:42] Riley: Well, that's just half the, the rule. The other half is you gotta persist. You gotta work hard. And, and if that is your passion, then it is a lot easier to persist through hurdles than if it's something you're not interested in. And, um, yeah, I'm just, I'm just super grateful to the scary challenge shark week, because.
[00:42:00] Riley: This is my dream is I'm having such a good time. And I think it's, cuz I'm ticking so many of the different boxes, not just for myself, but what I say to kids. When I speak at their schools, you can't just do something and become successful. Cause you're good at it. It's also gotta improve the world and help people cuz otherwise why would anyone support it?
[00:42:17] Riley: Um, so I think that's quite important and I think that's the lesson. If you're gonna do something, make sure it. You know, helping out our society and our earth, because it really needs it right now. Well, mate,
[00:42:27] Luke: I hope you score. Hope you get a few weeks off and then come back and keep doing the good work you're doing.
[00:42:31] Luke: And, uh, we look forward to seeing our next year's shark week.
[00:42:33] Riley: Awesome, Luke, thank you so much tears. So much discovery channel and shark week. Thank you very much.
[00:42:42] Luke: So that was Dr. Riley Elliott, as you can tell, he's a passionate guy about sharks, one of my favorite persons to watch, because he is so knowledgeable and he's legit. I mean, the guy's a PhD graduate. He's a doctor. He knows a lot about sharks and he's the first to admit that we don't know everything that's out there.
[00:43:00] Luke: Now, one of the things that he's so passionate about obviously is makos and I think he made a really excellent point that makos are not seeing the level of protect. That great whites have, you know, great whites are our trophy species. They're the shark week poster. Every single shark week poster almost is a great white shark.
[00:43:18] Luke: And that's great. We love them, but the world needs to recognize that we can't just look at these big troph species and think, oh, our job's done. You know, great whites are coming back. In much of the world, which is fantastic news, but our work is very far from done. We have niches that sharks like the Mako shark they fill and they do their job in a certain area.
[00:43:42] Luke: Great whites can't take up that niche. You know, we need makos. We need all of these species to be thriving and surviving and doing their job in the particular niche of the ocean that they habitate. So I. Riley and everyone else who is working on makos continue work because we need more accountability for the makos who are getting pulled outta the water.
[00:44:05] Luke: We need to understand that makos need longer to survive that 12 foot shark that we saw up in the top of the show. Shouldn't be an anomaly, as Riley said, that is a healthy. Breeding age shark, but really not as big as they should be. We should be seeing much larger makos around and shouldn't be as rare as it is.
[00:44:26] Luke: And with such a long traveled species, they they're highly, highly migratory. We're gonna need cooperation from a lot of people, and I hope New Zealand can set the standard for that and make some real progress in the protection of make.
[00:44:42] Luke: And okay, that's it for today's episode. I want you to stay tuned to this feed. As we continue to cover the Sharkies current topics, we'll talk to top scientists and experts and learn about the latest conservation efforts to keep this amazing animal from extinction. Thank you for listening to shark week the podcast.
[00:44:57] Luke: Be sure to rate us five stars and subscribe for more shark, fun facts until next time I'm Luke tip I'll chat to you soon.