Luke Tipple speaks with former Australian Navy bomb disposal diver, environmentalist & star of Shark Week special Monsters Under the Rig, Paul de Gelder.
On this episode of Shark Week: The Podcast, Luke Tipple is joined by Paul de Gelder, a former Australian Navy bomb disposal diver, shark-attack survivor, and star of the Shark Week special Monsters Under the Rig. After recounting his bull shark attack and subsequent shark activism, Paul discusses his search for “Maverick Makos.” These mako sharks seem to be traveling vast distances and redefining everything scientists thought they knew about mako behavior.
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For more about sharks, head to SharkWeek.com
[00:00:00] Luke: The Gulf of Mexico is one of the best places in the world to dive with sharks. This is because there are thousands of manmade gas and oil rigs surrounding those waters that form artificial reefs, havens for marine life, fish and big sharks. This is one of the favorite hunting grounds for the mako shark.
[00:00:19] Luke: They don't seem to stray much from the area, but now, some makos are changing. They're bigger, they're faster and simply relentless. Introducing the “Maverick Mako”...
[00:00:33] Luke: Welcome to Shark Week: The Podcast! I'm Luke Tipple, marine biologist, and a frequent voice on my favorite things, oceans and sharks. I'm stoked to bring the magic of Shark Week, right to your ears. Sharks have been a big part of my life for over 20 years now, studying them and diving with them all around the world.
[00:00:51] Luke: I guess that's given me some of the street cred to participate in many Shark Week documentaries throughout the years, and, now, to be your host. So whether you've never seen Shark Week before, or you've been a diehard fan over the 30 plus years it's been around, this podcast is for you.
[00:01:12] Luke: Our guest today is former Australian Navy bomb disposal diver, environmentalist, and shark expert Paul de Gilder, star of the Shark Week special Monsters Under the Rig. He can tell us more about these “Maverick Makos”, but first of all, Paul, how you doing, mate?
[00:01:26] Paul: Pretty good. What's going on? How did you get a gig? Two Aussies doing a Shark Week podcast?
[00:01:32] Luke: I don't know, mate. I think this whole trope of, you know, Aussies being the shark people and jumping in front of crocodiles and things with teeth and stuff like that. It's just, you know, they've at least got a couple of us, you know, hanging around.
[00:01:42] Paul: It's a terrible idea by the way.
[00:01:44] Luke: Yeah, terrible idea. Well, let's, let's start with that. How did you get into sharks? I mean this whole Navy disposal bomb diver thing is pretty cool, but now you dive with sharks. You're pretty much the most dangerous man in the world and you've got the scars to show it. So walk us through that evolution story, would you?
[00:02:00] Paul: Actually I started in the Australian army as a paratrooper. And then decided to go for something a little harder, test my metal, and did selection for Navy clearance divers, which, now, it's a lot more than just bomb disposal. We do underwater reconnaissance on rebreathers and underwater mine disposal, land based bomb disposal, a whole bunch of stuff.
[00:02:20] Paul: Very, very cool job. And then I turned up to work one morning, February 11th, 2009. Just to do a pretty easy test of some new equipment, jumped into the water of Sydney Harbor right next to the Navy base, went for a little swim on my back and a 10 foot bull shark came up from underneath me, grabbed me by the back of my right leg and my right hand in the same bite and decided that it wanted them more than I did, which I would heavily debate, but I didn't really get much of a choice.
[00:02:53] Paul: And, the thing nearly killed me. And so that's how I got into a shark, the first time. But then, after that, you know, I just wanted to go back to work. I didn't really have a lot in opportunity before I joined the military, I was kinda like drifting, working bars and stuff like that.
[00:03:13] Paul: And so, you know, I'd become this elite Navy clearance diver, for lack of a better word. And it was the high point of my life. And, all of a sudden, there was this fear that I was gonna lose my whole career and everything I worked towards. So my whole focus, a hundred percent of my energy, went into my recovery and getting back to work, which I pulled off in six months and then it just kind of went on.
[00:03:34] Paul: I was just working for a bit. And then, 60 Minutes came along and they asked me to do a dive in an aquarium. And then, the next year, they wanted me to go and meet the bull sharks for the first time, since my attack. And, you know, I'd never even seen a large, dangerous shark. I thought if we killed them, then we wouldn't have to worry about 'em anymore.
[00:03:54] Paul: I was like, that's a great idea. Let's just kill all the sharks. I had no idea, like sharks and public speaking were my two worst fears in my life, which is very strange because now... I am a shark diving public speaker. So it's, you know, I think it's a good message in that though. Like, we can literally turn our worst fears into our greatest strengths if we decide to face them head on and not let fear get in the way of our potential.
[00:04:19] Luke: And sharks are a terrific recruitment agent apparently as well. You found the right guys swimming around that day. That's for sure.
[00:04:28] Paul: I don't know about that. He could have bit me and let go. Like most of them do, instead he decided to eat parts of my limb.
[00:04:32] Luke: Well, let's, without getting too, you know, gory about it all, but you know, for those people who don't know Paul, talk us through your injuries, ‘cause being able to go through what you did and getting back to work in six months time is pretty extraordinary, mate.
[00:04:45] Paul: Yeah, I'm really stubborn. So the shark removed my entire hamstring. It severed an artery, fortunately it wasn't my femoral artery. So, if it had nicked that, I would've bled out and died before I was even out of the water. Also took my hand. And so I went underwater water with it, tore me apart and I thought I was gonna die.
[00:05:07] Paul: And then, when it removed the parts of my limbs, I wasn't attached to it anymore and my wetsuit made me buoyant. So I popped to the surface, realized, I'm still alive. And I see my safety boat and I think I gotta get outta here. If this shark comes back, you know, I knew nothing. I thought bull sharks swum in packs, and I was just waiting for the next shark to come and attack me while I'm trying to swim, with one hand and one leg back, to my safety boat, through a pool of my own blood.
[00:05:33] Paul: So pretty bad day at work, as far as things go. I had three teammates in the safety boat, they did first aid, kept me alive. Then the paramedics got there and whisked me off to emergency surgery. So it was a lot of recovery time. I had my leg for a week, but I couldn't feel it and I couldn't move it.
[00:05:50] Paul: So we had to make the decision to have it taken off. And then it was, as soon as I woke up, I was just training in my hospital bed before I could even get up and go to the toilet.
[00:05:58] Luke: And where are you now? I mean, you're obviously very mobile these days, but what are you… what prosthetics do you rely upon?
[00:06:05] Paul: I'm very fortunate that the military basically gives me whatever I want. I found a loophole, they said in the documentation that it was their responsibility to get me as close to my previous life as possible. And so, anytime they're like uming and arrrring about whether to give me something like, modify a motorcycle, so I could ride lefthanded and left footed.
[00:06:27] Paul: I just leave that little quote there saying, “hey, just so you know, it is your responsibility to get me back to my previous life”. And I was a motorcycle rider and I was a snowboarder. So, I've got two walking legs, the best in the world. I've got two robot hands because I break one all the time. So I need a spare.
[00:06:45] Paul: I've got weightlifting arms. I've got a snowboarding leg. I've got a running blade. I've got two diving legs that I use for filming Shark Week. So my luggage can get very heavy if I don't choose wisely what I'm gonna do on my adventures.
[00:07:00] Luke: That's awesome, so basically you write 'em a nice little note. So, you know, I used to love riding bikes. I'd like to do that again… Hint, hint, next thing you know, you got, you beauty, new legs in the mail.
[00:07:12] Paul: Yep. Snowboarding legs and all manner. I just went up to Telluride and, first time I've actually used it, and I killed it and I, you know, I'm thinking, I'm doing so well here. Paralympics are in about four years.
[00:07:25] Paul: If I get really good, there's no one in my category of amputation. So there's no competition for the Australian team. I could be a 50 year old Paralympian.
[00:07:33] Luke: Dude, you should definitely do that.
[00:07:34] Paul: I'm gonna try.
[00:07:35] Luke: That would be incredible. One more thing to add to your speaking circuit, at least. Gold medalist Paul de Gelder, shark diver extraordinaire. I love it.
[00:07:43] Paul: Life's about challenges and having stories and, you know, having come as close to death as I did, you realize that there is nothing to be afraid of, in regards to death. What people should be afraid of is going to your deathbed with regrets and missed opportunities and things that you should or could or would've done and chose not to.
[00:08:02] Paul: So now, all I want to do is make sure that, next time I'm gonna die, I feel exactly the way I did when I nearly did the first time. So every opportunity, every time to challenge myself and go on an adventure or try something new or face a fear, that's what we do. That's what we should be doing!
[00:08:18] Luke: Too right. So take us from your story into the “Maverick Mako” story, how'd you get involved with this project?
[00:08:25] Paul: Basically, I moved out to LA because Discovery Channel wanted to give me a contract to work with them and who am I to argue? And I kind of slipped in there that I wouldn't mind living in America.
[00:08:37] Paul: How about a working visa? So they allowed that, thankfully, and now I live in LA on the West Side, down at Marina del Rey and I just get random calls. So I just had a big night on the beers with the boys and I had some friends over and we're all having breakfast that morning. And I got a call and a producer I know was on the other end.
[00:08:56] Paul: And he said, Paul, are you a man of adventure? And I said, you know I am and they've got a story for me and I've always had a dream of seeing what is under those oil rigs, wherever they are, whether it's the coast of California… So, the production team asked me if I'd be interested in Monsters Under the Rig and diving with mako sharks.
[00:09:17] Paul: And I don't have a lot of experience with makos. So, obviously, I definitely want to do it. And so, we travel out to the Gulf of Mexico, off the coast of Texas. And we go exploring under these rigs and the ecosystem that these things create. Now, there's 2000 oil rigs in the Gulf of Mexico. That's a lot of oil rigs but that's a lot of artificial ecosystems that have created homes and habitats for animals that might not have ever had one there.
[00:09:46] Paul: And it's created this enormous and phenomenal abundance of life. And funnily enough, we went looking for makos. We split into two teams actually, myself and Julia Wheeler, who is an incredible person. Incredible free diver, journalist, filmmaker. Wonderful woman. We did a podcast together last year, called The Dirt Down Under, looking at environmental and conservation stuff.
[00:10:11] Paul: So it was really awesome to actually get on a shoot with her and go diving and exploring. But we're under these oil rigs in the middle of the ocean. You can't see land anywhere and there's 2000 of these rigs and you go underneath and there's this explosion of life. And we went looking for makos.
[00:10:28] Paul: We didn't get any close up, hands on action, which is what I usually like. But they were around, we saw one in the distance. They're just so fast moving and so elusive and they can detect you! I don't know how they know this but they can see and detect you knowing that you can't see them. Like, I don't know how they know our vision sucks.
[00:10:48] Paul: But, yeah, they're just incredible. What… Andy Casagrande called them an “avalanche of razor blades”. We're like, oh, wow. This is amazing. We're in the middle of the ocean. There's three scalloped hammerheads, big ones, like 9, 10 foot. And, so, we start banging on our wetsuits, getting our dive gear ready.
[00:11:06] Paul: And the crew on the boat are, like, fishermen and they're just looking at us like we're totally insane. And they're like… what are you guys doing? These aren't trained sharks, these are wild. This is the ocean. You can't just go swimming with sharks. And we're like, yeah, we can. Yeah and it was also, it was also really murky.
[00:11:26] Paul: So we couldn't see 'em until they were right up on us. It was a thrill, I'll give it that.
[00:11:31] Luke: So your team was just one of the parties who were out there, looking for monster makos and the thought was that there’s these, you know, quote unquote “Maverick Makos”, that are undergoing great big migrations.
[00:11:46] Luke: What's the significance of that?
[00:11:47] Paul: Well, it was just about trying to track where and why and what they're doing there. So these “Maverick Makos”, that they've called them, will travel all the way from the far Northeast coast of the US, all the way down to the Gulf of Mexico and, as far as I'm aware, they don't usually make that huge a migration and these things aren't just doing this long migration.
[00:12:10] Paul: They're really, really big. So, just, way bigger than the normal makos you run into. And some of the pictures I saw of them and we had our science team as well, and they've been tracking 'em in another area of the Gulf and they were this beautiful color I'd never seen before. They're like… like an Australian Shepherd.
[00:12:29] Paul: They have that mottling color and they're blue and speckly, and they're enormous. And so, yeah, it's just really about finding out why they're there. What are they doing? What sets them apart from the normal Mako?
[00:12:42] Luke: And one of the techniques you guys were using was to go and get some DNA samples. For somebody who has no idea how you'd do that with a shark, explain the techniques you were trying.
[00:12:53] Paul: So this is why we utilize Julia because sharks can get scared off when you've got all that metal of the tanks and the clanging of things on you and the blowing of bubbles. But Julia is an expert free diver, which makes you more silent. You’re like the underwater ninja, you can definitely get closer to sharks, especially ones that aren't used to humans being around.
[00:13:13] Paul: So, Julia went down on one breath with a sample pole, got as close as she could to the mako. I was on the surface, making sure everything was running okay, you know. If anything goes wrong, I've gotta dip down and sort of save the day. Fortunately I didn't have to do that because Julia is just wicked and she shot it with a hand spear, it takes a little core sample just outta their skin, around the belly where it's softer.
[00:13:37] Paul: It doesn't really hurt 'em, just gives them a little bit of a fright. Yeah, this is really not that intrusive. And it just gives you this abundance of information. Once you hand it over to the scientist and they can tell you everything about, from what they're eating to, where they're swimming to, how old they are, whether they're mature enough to be pupping, like, just a wealth of information.
[00:13:55] Paul: You know, thank God for smart people.
[00:14:08] Luke: So, what else were you seeing out there? ‘Cause, you know, you're out there looking for makos, but here's a bit of a plug for, you know, the Gulf of Texas, I guess it's the Gulf of Mexico, isn't it. But, you know, there's so much shark life out there. It's kind of ridiculous.
[00:14:22] Paul: And not just shark life… the fish species, the giant… look, I'm no fish expert, so I know what the hell they were.
[00:14:28] Paul: I just call 'em big bloody fish. Like, that looked like a barracuda but a bigger barracuda than I'd ever seen.
[00:14:35] Luke: It probably was just a big Barracuda. there's not a lot that look like a barracuda.
[00:14:39] Paul: Sometimes they're a little more scarier than the sharks ‘cause they just swim around with their mouth open and their big old teeth hanging out and they'll rip your finger off and, like, there's a whole school of them.
[00:14:52] Paul: So, yeah, you get a little nervous. I usually just swim directly at them to show that I'm a predator as well, get outta my way. It's worked so far. I'm not sure if it's gonna work forever. so I might start wearing chainmail on my phalanges.
[00:15:08] Luke: You know, barracuda are one of those fish that… they're just underrated but, geez, they’re scary, you know?
[00:15:14] Luke: I’ve had one bigger than me swim up next to me. Just eying me off. Like, dude, you really should have been a shark, shouldn't you? And they’re fast as hell. We used to warn people about, you know, diving with earrings and stuff like that on, because there have been many cases where a barracuda's gone after an earring or a ring or some flashy little thing, and somebody's gotten pretty scarred up from them.
[00:15:33] Luke: ‘Cause those teeth are gnarly. They're kind of, like, almost like a little mako coming at you.
[00:15:37] Paul: Yeah, seriously. So, strength in numbers but yeah, we saw lots of big fish, lots of fish life and the micro animals that exist on the corals that coat the support structures.
[00:15:55] Paul: Like people go into space, wondering if there's aliens out there. We’ve got aliens right here. Like, you watch any science fiction movie and then you go and dive under the oceans. And, especially on these oil rig structures, these things look like legit aliens. Like, what are these things? Where do they come from?
[00:16:11] Paul: What is their purpose? And then you get the sharks, makos. We did a dive at, I don't know if… I don't wanna spoil it, but we were heading down to 60 feet and it was me and Julia. And I think it was Pho, who is one of the best cameramen to work with. And so, we're just diving down, the three of us, we get to about 30 feet and it's pitch black.
[00:16:34] Paul: And you know what it's like when you have the camera, it's just one big dome of light from that camera. And that's it! And, as soon as he points that camera out, it's like looking into the sun. You can't see anything. So you're trying to be in camera without looking at the light. Also, the struggles and pressures of diving and keeping track of depth and current flow and all that sort of stuff.
[00:16:56] Paul: And then a 14 foot tiger shark comes out of the merk and just sidles up next to you, stops swimming for a fraction of a second, looks you all over and then just drifts off into the night. And, you're just thinking, what else is out there? Looking at me right now.
[00:17:13] Luke: Everything… everything. The tiger shark is just the one bold enough to come in.
[00:17:20] Paul: This is where the underwater bomb disposal calmness comes in because, you know, you're putting together six 500 pound bombs and you've got detonators, dead cord and plastic explosives strapped to your body. And you're swimming with six 500 pound bombs in water so murky, you can't even see your hand in front of your face and you just gotta stop and just take an ooooh breath.
[00:17:43] Paul: And, you know, it's the same thing with night diving some of the time.
[00:17:47] Luke: Yeah, the tiger sharks are one. That's just kinda like, you know, puppy dog style or aggressive dog style, coming in and checking you out. Everything else is just waiting for the camera batteries to die. Wait till that light goes.
[00:17:57] Paul: And you can never turn your back on 'em.
[00:17:59] Paul: You can't turn your back on them, you know? So, even if you, if one comes in and you have to push it away, a lot of sharks, you can push it away and you focus on the next shark. You can't do that with tigers, ‘cause they'll spin on a dime and come back for another look.
[00:18:10] Luke: Hey, I’m curious with, you know, obviously your life story is pretty incredible and the way that you've come around from saying, you know, not so much that the only good shark is a dead shark, but having not much knowledge about sharks or really, you know, any care for them, to now being such an advocate. Like, what was that actual mental transition like for you?
[00:18:29] Paul: It was… it was really enlightening. I did not expect what I discovered and the only reason I started looking into sharks was because my shark attack was so huge in the Australian media. And my recovery was so great. And I made note in interviews. I was like, I never blame the shark. You know, I chose a dangerous life and it, out of all the dangerous things that could have happened to me from parachuting, to bombs, to guns, shark attack is, by far, the cooler story.
[00:18:55] Paul: And so I never blamed the shark. I chose that life. And so, because of that, anytime there was another shark interaction around Australia, the media would come to me to go on TV and give a, you know, an explanation why this happens, how do we stay safe? And so it really came about out of a necessity to not look like a dumbass.
[00:19:17] Paul: I didn't want to go on TV and be like, ah, yeah, sharks, they've got a fin and, you know, teeth and just whatever. So I had to do my research. I didn't want to go in unprepared. And, the more I learned about sharks, the more I realized how little we have to fear of them and how much they have to fear of us.
[00:19:38] Paul: You know, the statistics are staggering. Worldwide, maybe 10 people die from a shark attack every year, in the whole planet. And in comparison, we kill over a hundred million, possibly, you know, some numbers say 250 million sharks every year. So who's the real monster of the ocean? It's definitely not sharks.
[00:20:00] Paul: And so, that ignited a passion in me. And I saw it as a really great transfer of my military service, where that was about protecting people and standing up for people that can't protect or stand up for themselves. And so now I saw sharks as this animal, this species, that is being slaughtered and massacred.
[00:20:20] Paul: And doesn't have a voice. And so it was almost like I had to stand up for this animal and give it a voice to let people know exactly why we need to keep 'em in the oceans, why they're important for the ecosystems, why we shouldn't be eating them because they're full of toxic metals and just the all around importance of them.
[00:20:40] Paul: And so now it's kind of like… I think one of the worst things that you can do is have a voice and a platform and not use it for good. And so you… I had to, I had to stand up for them.
[00:20:52] Luke: Do you think, and this is not a baited question. Do you think you'd be doing that if it wasn't for the cameras as well?
[00:20:59] Luke: I mean, obviously it's a huge media thing, you know, you're a good looking Aussie bloke, you know, do you think that you'd be using that platform and everything, even if the cameras weren't there?
[00:21:10] Paul: Dude, do not tell Discovery Channel this, but I would pay to do my adventures.
[00:21:15] Luke: Kind of what I thought you'd say!
[00:21:16] Paul: I don't want… I don't even care about the cameras. Being on camera is the price I have to pay to go and have these adventures, which I would literally pay my own money to go and do, so absolutely.
[00:21:30] Luke: I've said very similar things myself, where I'm like, you know, the cameras and the actual, you know, creative and everything is really just the tool that gets me to go out and have these adventures and hang out with these animals and do the work, you know?
[00:21:41] Paul: Right, yeah. And cool people as well.
[00:21:43] Paul: Like the, you know, film crews are an incredible amalgamation of human beings that, you know, they work so hard and they're the unsung heroes of these adventures that we have. Most of the time, none of them get to get in the water and have the adventures that we do. And yet they put in 3, 4, 5 times the amount of work with the sound, with the filming, with the editing, with producing, like months of preparation beforehand.
[00:22:08] Paul: So, you know, all the producers and editors and camera guys out there, that never get that their wrap. Don't think we don't appreciate you. We do. We see how hard you work. You are the unsung heroes of these shows.
[00:22:19] Luke: Oh, actually, Pho got a little bit of camera time on this show. I was stoked to see that.
[00:22:25] Paul: Yeah, there's a couple of people. There's, like, Andy Casagrande, Joe Romeiro, Pho is awesome, you know, they get their moment in the spotlight. But the reason we all do this is because we love sharks and we want to teach people about 'em and we want to protect them. And so, our hearts are all in the right places.
[00:22:39] Luke: So what's the next phone call that you're about to get, or the next mission you're about to go on? Do you know?
[00:22:45] Paul: Yeah. So the next adventure is, there's a whole bunch of stuff… I'm actually taking tourists down to the Isle of Guadalupe in September and October to teach 'em about great whites and give them a face to face meeting in the cages.
[00:22:58] Paul: So that's gonna be incredible. You know, this is one of the spots that we film a lot of the time throughout the year, Guadalupe, because, guaranteed great whites. So doing that, taking a trip out to South Africa to go and visit some friends at VETPAW, these are veterans that protect the rhinos in South Africa.
[00:23:15] Paul: And, I spent my COVID time wisely writing a book called Shark: Why We Need to Save the World's Most Misunderstood Predator. So there it is… it's available.
[00:23:28] Luke: And what can we expect from this here? Here's your plug for it? Is it your life? Is it about the animals? Is it all the above?
[00:23:33] Paul: It’s stories. It's the way that I do my presenting on stage. Like, I don't like being force fed information. I just don't learn that way. And so I like things to be in a story with information and humor and adventure. And so I've mixed a bunch of my stories, with Shark Week, into the science of sharks, introduce people to sharks that don't often get the spotlight on Shark Week.
[00:23:56] Paul: And so a lot of that stuff and also, what we can do to help save them, why they're so important. You know, it's not supposed to be an instructional manual or a scientific journal or anything like that. It's just… it's my love letter to sharks because they've taken and also given me so much. And so I wanted to write something special for them and hopefully people will love it and learn a whole bunch of stuff.
[00:24:20] Paul: You know and get some good stories behind the scenes on Shark Week, too.
[00:24:24] Luke: That's rad mate. When's that coming?
[00:24:27] Paul: It's out July in the UK, August in Australia. And, unfortunately, not until January in the US.
[00:24:34] Luke: How are they missing Shark Week? Who dropped the ball there?
[00:24:38] Paul: I don't know. I don't know. We're gonna talk to 'em today and trying to get 'em to at least bring it forward to Christmas so people can buy it for their friends for Christmas presents.
[00:24:45] Luke: Good on you. Well, that's awesome, Paul. Hey, thank you so much for your time today. It's always a pleasure chatting.
[00:24:49] Paul: You too, mate. Thanks so much.
[00:24:54] Luke: All right. That wraps up another episode of Shark Week: The Podcast! Stay tuned to this feed for more interviews with shark experts, just like Paul, who will give us the behind the scenes scoop on what really happens out at sea. We'll see you again soon. Thanks for listening to Shark Week: The Podcast. Be sure to rate us five stars and subscribe for more shark fun facts.
[00:25:13] Luke: I'm Luke Tipple, I'll see you next time.