Luke Tipple is joined by freediver and activist Zandile Ndhlovu aka “The Black Mermaid” to discuss the disappearance of great white sharks in South Africa and Zandile’s quest to increase diversity in the oceans!
Shark Week: The Podcast dives into the latest shark news as Luke Tipple discusses the reaction to several shark bites off the coast of Long Island. He also looks at reports that Atlantic plankton are being wiped out faster than previously thought and explains why it could be catastrophic for shark populations and the environment as a whole. Plus, freediver and star of Discovery’s Shark Week Special Shark Women: Ghosted by Great Whites, Zandile Ndhlovu aka “The Black Mermaid”, joins Luke to speak about the disappearance of great white sharks in South Africa and Zandile’s quest to increase diversity in the oceans!
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Find episode transcripts here: https://shark-weeks-daily-bite.simplecast.com/episodes/zandile-ndhlovu-on-south-african-great-whites-creating-a-more-diverse-ocean
[00:00:00] Luke: Good day everyone! On today's podcast, we'll discuss the reaction to a series of shark attacks that have been happening just off the coast of Long Island. I'm gonna tell you about the decline of Atlantic plankton, which is a really bad thing. It's going to drastically affect marine life and your lives in the years to come. And later, I'll be joined by a free diver and star of Discovery’s Shark Week special Shark Women: Ghosted by Great Whites…
[00:00:26] Luke: Which you definitely need to see. It's a fantastic show. Her name is Zandile Ndhlovu and she's known as the black mermaid. She's gonna tell us all about great whites in South Africa and how she became South Africa's first black freediving instructor. All of that, and more, is coming up on this episode of Shark Week: The Podcast.
[00:00:47] Luke: I'm Luke Tipple, marine biologist and a frequent voice on my favorite things, oceans and sharks. And I'm stoked to bring the magic of Shark Week, right to your ears. You know, sharks have been a big part of my life for over 20 years. They're a critical part of the ocean and a conduit to better understanding life on our planet.
[00:01:06] Luke: So, whether you've never seen Shark Week before or you've been a die hard fan over the 30-plus years it's been around, this podcast is for you.
[00:01:20] Luke: So, we're gonna start today's pod with Shark Speak and, you know, the world of sharks, it's never boring. And, as ever, we have several stories to dive into. And we're gonna start with one, which is a bit of a hot topic in the, kind of, New York area right now because there've been several shark attacks on Long Island, New York.
[00:01:37] Luke: Now, in researching this story, our producer, he, you know, he's in New York and he's talking about, you know, he’s the man on the street. Kind of conducting interviews, talking to people about sharks ‘cause everyone's talking about sharks right now. It's Shark Week. It's our favorite week of the year. But just in these last few weeks, starting on June 30th, there've been six separate incidents and they've been written up as shark attacks.
[00:01:59] Luke: These are really shark bites. No one got seriously hurt. Thank goodness. But it's created this little bit of palpable paranoia, particularly in that New Yorker community where they're like, no, I do not want to go to the beach. There's a bunch of sharks there and they're gonna bite us, kill us, maime us, destroy us.
[00:02:17] Luke: These all pretty much share the same characteristics. They're all small sharks. These are sharks that are like four to five feet long, that were substantiated by the victims. They saw them… they managed to fight them off in several cases. And it's always in shallow water, often fairly murky water. And these sharks are naturally there.
[00:02:36] Luke: We're talking about sandbar sharks, sand tiger sharks and dusky sharks. And they're particularly in the area right now, feeding on bunker fish and other sorts of migratory spawning fish that are in the area. And it's totally normal for them to be there right now. The waters are nice and warm. This is a particular sharky time.
[00:02:52] Luke: This is not news for the Long Island area. People know there's sharks out there but there aren't droves of great white sharks coming and eating up everybody on the Long Island shores. We've all seen that movie. The movie sucks! It’s from a very long time ago. So forget that! This ain't Jaws. This is a bunch of people bumping into sand tiger sharks.
[00:03:10] Luke: And, in two of the cases, it's actually lifeguards who were simulating being a drowning victim. So they're out there splashing around and creating a huge amount of distress, the things that sharks like. I would definitely not advise this. And I think they're probably going to redo the protocols during particular times of year of how they're going to simulate and practice this in the lifeguard community.
[00:03:32] Luke: If you've ever seen somebody drowning, it's not a nice thing. You know, they’re flapping in the water and creating a huge amount of noise. They're desperate, they're dying, they want help. That is just a trigger for sharks. So, I would say, definitely don't drown because you don't want to attract a shark to the area, but more so, take a note from that as how not to behave. Don't be on your own thrashing around making a bunch of noise, attracting yourself towards sharks. But otherwise it's fantastic to hear that Long Island has a thriving shark population and that these six people got away with just some war stories.
[00:04:10] Luke: But, moving from a sort of semi-healthy ocean type story into one that's actually… it's kind of gnarly, guys. And we’ve gotta talk about plankton and how do you go from sharks to plankton? Now, let's start the story with the headline, ‘cause it's pretty shocking. It's Our Empty Oceans: Scots Teams’ Research Finds Atlantic Plankton All But Wiped Out In A Catastrophic Loss Of Life. Now that sounds like a huge world changing event. And it kind of is and we need to talk about plankton. But first, let's talk about what plankton actually is. Plankton are very, very small, sometimes even microscopic animals and plants that are in the ocean.
[00:04:52] Luke: Now, when you look at an ocean and it's, like, super green, that's generally the presence of plankton, that's in the water. Now we have these idyllic views of the ocean being this perfect blue crystal clear... You can see for a hundred meters underwater and swim on these perfect white sand beaches as being the ideal of an ocean.
[00:05:14] Luke: And, while that's pretty and I enjoy it and it's great to dive in those conditions, the reality is that's an ocean that's actually pretty devoid of life. And, when I talk about devoid of life, I'm saying that the basic bottom rung of the food chain, which is required, is plankton. So you look at these more cold water environments that are sort of almost milky green.
[00:05:37] Luke: That's a super healthy, productive ocean, ‘cause there's a lot of plankton. Now a recent study coming out of Edinburgh found that their conclusion was that there are nearly no phytoplankton left in the ocean. And they're particularly looking at a transect of the Atlantic ocean, which they've been studying for the last two years now.
[00:05:58] Luke: They went in to collect water samples, working off the operating theory that plankton has been depleted by about 50% over the last 20 years or so. What they discovered was way worse. It's like 90%-plus that they've found that has been depleted. And this is really, really, really bad. Now, not just for the animals that feed on plankton, but something that you may not know is that plankton absorb and process CO2, which creates oxygen that we breathe.
[00:06:33] Luke: So a way of thinking about it is that there are several ocean systems such as plankton and also seagrass that are essentially really the lungs of our planet. But plankton… they need specific conditions to thrive. And that is water that is slightly alkaline. And we've got a problem where the oceans are slowly turning acidic.
[00:06:55] Luke: Now this is a process that's gonna take a very, very, very long time. We don't know where it's gonna end up. What we can say is that very small changes in the ocean can have massive effects on this biomass and life. So when we've got an overload in the ocean, which we do right now, of things like man made chemicals from cosmetics and plastics, sunscreen, drugs, fertilizers, it's all in the marine environment right now.
[00:07:22] Luke: And a lot of this is coming off of groundwater and wastewater. Now, in the 1940s, you know, we didn't have all these toxic chemicals. We actually thought of throwing our waste and I'm talking about your bathroom waste and things like that, into the ocean. It was almost thought of as a good thing.
[00:07:42] Luke: Now it's not really a good thing but the effluent that was coming out… even if it was untreated was essentially biodegradable and that's pretty much all it was. So, while it did have some sort of local effects on pollution, essentially, it was just putting out food back into the ocean and it's in a weird kind of way, kind of helped feed some of the, you know, the animals and stuff, that rely on those nutrients.
[00:08:08] Luke: But now, a lot of that untreated waste water which is going in - and by the way, only about 5% of the world's waste water actually is treated before it goes into the ocean. So it's a huge, huge problem. But this wastewater contains stuff… All these chemicals that come from our, as I said, you know, our antiperspirants, our shampoos, our detergents, what it does to the phytoplankton and even the zooplankton… they essentially get fried by the chemicals that we're putting in. Another thing these researchers found, which is kind of really disturbing, is the microplastics. And this is something we've heard a lot about. These are plastics that have been broken down, largely. So plastic bottles that have been broken down eventually turn into these microplastics.
[00:08:56] Luke: They enter the ocean system. We can't do anything about it, really. There's really no way to get them. They're almost microscopic… but they're tiny, tiny little specs of plastic. Now, these researchers expected to discover about 20 specs per liter of Atlantic water, 20 specs per liter.
[00:09:15] Luke: They ended up counting between a hundred and a thousand per liter, which is exponentially more. Obviously now, to juxtapose that, just to give you an idea about the volume of plastic in our water versus plankton, which should be in our water. In that same water, they expected to find five pieces of plankton in every 10 liters of water. And they found an average of less than one.
[00:09:37] Luke: So our oceans are largely plastic, right? They need to be plankton. So that's the science part but let's talk about what you can actually do about it. Now, first of all, super easy one! Everyone's talking about it so this shouldn't be difficult but stop using plastics, especially single use plastics. So, you know, bottles of soft drink or pop or soda, whatever you wanna call it.
[00:10:00] Luke: Bottles of water are particularly bad. If I could do one thing, it would be to eliminate bottles of water from this planet. That'd be amazing. The other thing you can do is just by reducing the amount of chemicals you are putting into the ocean every day.
[00:10:12] Luke: Every single one of you are putting chemicals into the ocean daily. It's coming from your dishwasher in the form of detergents. It's coming from your body in the form of sunscreens and other skin type products. And it's something we really need to pay attention to ‘cause the ingredients matter. And moving onto our next story ‘cause this one has just such an incredible title!
[00:10:37] Luke: Listen to it… Orcas Are Eating Great White Sharks’ Livers Off South Africa's Coast. No… that's not the title of a really bad B movie that's about to come out… that wouldn't even fit on the DVD box cover. But I'd watch that film. I mean this is pretty gnarly. This is from The Spokesman on July 2nd, 2022.
[00:10:57] Luke: Now this is something we've spoken about before because orcas are a natural predator for great whites. And, over the last few years, particularly from about 2017 onwards, it's become a big deal because orcas have attacked, killed and eaten the livers out of quite a few great white sharks and it's scaring 'em away.
[00:11:17] Luke: So they'll literally come up, they'll grab them by their pectoral fins and then they'll play a game of tug of war until the shark splits open and then they'll eat their liver and maybe even their heart. And this happened a lot. A lot! So, in 2017, scientists started looking at this and they were getting, you know, seven shark sightings a day.
[00:11:39] Luke: That was pretty normal. You know, a healthy, productive system. There's lots of seals around, there's lots of great whites. That's normal for the area. But following these attacks, the sightings went down to, like, just over one per day, for the next, like, six months after these attacks. And we're particularly talking about in Gansbaai here in South Africa, the great white sharks really did clear out of the area.
[00:12:01] Luke: And it's because of these orcas. Now, you have to wonder, like, how are the sharks… are they communicating? Are they saying, hey, we're in a bad area right now. ‘cause we typically think of… especially great whites as being kind of solitary. They do, you know, socially mix a little, but really they're just out looking after themselves.
[00:12:20] Luke: Right? So it's actually really interesting because sharks obviously have exceptional senses of smell and they can sense the smell of a dead shark. So when one of their own gets killed, they can smell that in the water and they'll take off. And this is something that's being investigated as a possible shark repellent.
[00:12:41] Luke: But the problem is, how do we commercially produce that much of it and deploy it into a place where sharks can smell it. That kind of difficult science to put together, but if somebody figures it out, we could just be able to essentially spray stuff into the ocean that would keep sharks away. Now we're a long way from that.
[00:12:59] Luke: It might not be the solution but it's extremely interesting to understand how the shark’s senses and psyche works. Now I'm excited to speak to Zandile Ndhlovu because she is part three of the three-woman team who put together the Shark Week special Shark Women: Ghosted by Great Whites. So we spoke to Allison and Lee before.
[00:13:19] Luke: And if you haven't listened to that one, you have to go back to our podcast and listen to it. It's a fascinating conversation with two very prominent scientists. And Zandile was part of that team and has such a unique aspect and outlook on the oceans. She's coming right up!
[00:13:46] Luke: So today on Big Impact, I'm stoked to welcome a guest all the way from South Africa. She's a free diver and star of Discovery’s Shark Week special Shark Women: Ghosted by Great Whites, Zandile Ndhlovu. Welcome to the show.
[00:13:59] Zandile: Hello Luke. Thank you so much for having me. It's such a pleasure to be here.
[00:14:02] Luke: Oh, thanks for making the time.
[00:14:03] Luke: I know you're pretty busy over there and the whole time difference is pretty interesting to navigate. So introduce yourself, tell us who you are.
[00:14:11] Zandile: Thank you so much. I've actually also just loved watching the show. My name, like you said, Zandile Ndhlovu. I'm a freediving instructor, actually South Africa's first black female freediving instructor.
[00:14:21] Zandile: And I have a foundation called the Black Mermaid Foundation, which just works to create diversity in ocean spaces. Luke, my story is an interesting one. I didn't grow up anywhere near the sea. I grew up in Soweto, which is like a township… a location, six hours from the nearest sea. And so, in 2016, I go on a snorkel trip in Bali.
[00:14:41] Zandile: I had never even been snorkeling before. I did not know how everything worked. And so, you know, as the captain says, everybody kit up and this lady sees that I'm looking a little bit lost on those words, you know? And she says to me, have you never been snorkeling before? And I say no. And she says, why didn't you say anything?
[00:14:59] Zandile: And I was like, I would've figured it out. And she goes on to, like, hold the mask and say, that's gonna cover your nose. So you can't breathe through your nose. This is a snorkel. And so, you know, grab your teeth around this mouthpiece and that's how you breathe in and out while you're looking underwater.
[00:15:14] Zandile: And so that was my first moment in 2016, seeing beneath the surface. And I absolutely fell in love when I jumped into the water. Did I freak out? One hundred percent! I was splashing, I was screaming, oh my God, I'm drowning. Was I drowning? No, I was being dramatic.
[00:15:30] Luke: When you jumped in, were you a strong swimmer?
[00:15:32] Luke: Like, did you even know how to survive in that environment or was it just the experience of seeing everything under the water?
[00:15:39] Zandile: Thank heavens, I could swim. So let's start here. Thank heaven. I could swim. So I was definitely not drowning and I think that was the self to self discussion. Hi, miss, why are you being dramatic?
[00:15:48] Zandile: You know how to swim! Can you calm down? And so, as I calmed down and I looked beneath… What is going on here? There was like these colorful fish, honeycomb moray, the ocean floor looked like it was lit from beneath. It was insane. I just remember thinking this is home and, you know, we had this snorkel guide guy and he kept on diving down and bringing up these beautiful shells.
[00:16:14] Zandile: And I thought what's going on? How are these shells so perfect? Who shines them? It was insane.
[00:16:21] Luke: So how did you… who shines the shells? Haha! I think that needs to be, like, Discovery Channel’s next t-shirt or something. Be a good Shark Week one. So, how did you discover your propensity for, you know, breath hold and free diving in particular?
[00:16:38] Zandile: I think… so on that snorkel trip on my little… so after, like, being in complete awe of this guy who keeps on diving in, I dive in after him. And in that moment I hold my breath for a few seconds and something changes. Like something changes, as in, this is home and I come back, I start scuba diving. Of course I ask everybody what happens after you snorkel.
[00:17:01] Zandile: Everybody's like scuba… scuba! And so, I go, like, to the heavens with scuba. I go on my discover, open water, advanced, deep… everything! But it never quite felt like in 2016 and I'm on Instagram the one day and I'm scrolling and I see these three girls, there's this powerful message in the background.
[00:17:22] Zandile: These girls are diving. There's no tanks, they’re at the bottom of the ocean. Sheer witchery Luke, sheer witchery. If you're not someone who's with, you know, the ocean space. And so I type into Google, you know, diving no tanks and it's, like, free diving. And that's when I knew… and I go on this free diving course and, from the moment as like, I hold my breathe…
[00:17:45] Zandile: There's that feeling like… The feeling that says, you know, this is what you've been waiting for your whole life. Here it is, come fetch it. That was it for me. And so you couldn't keep me quiet after that.
[00:17:56] Luke: Where are you with your free diving journey now? You're an instructor, right?
[00:18:00] Zandile: Yeah. So I have the incredible opportunity to teach people how to explore this world.
[00:18:05] Zandile: It's the most incredible world.
[00:18:07] Luke: And, and what is the Black Mermaid Foundation? Cause I know you started that.
[00:18:11] Zandile: So, of course, in South Africa, specifically, our oceans are not diverse. They're not diversity represented. And so for me it said, what does it mean to create a change, to see a vision of a future where this ocean is connected to everybody?
[00:18:26] Zandile: And so, for me, it just said we need to create diversity and it starts with the kids. And so I work with the community, which is like a township in Langa here in Cape Town. And I take the kids out snorkelling. And for most of the kids as well, they have never seen beneath the surface. And so we go from wild terror… wild terror, like, when I pick up the kids, everyone's like, I'm so cool!
[00:18:49] Zandile: I'm gonna show you when we get to the water. When we get to the water, nobody's wanting to get in. And so it's this terror and, somewhere in the midst of this terror, somebody decides to trust me. And we go out into the water. And, let me tell you the moment that, for me, brings me to tears every single time… it's a starfish, there's a starfish.
[00:19:13] Zandile: And I just know that we've just broken into gold. It's incredible.
[00:19:16] Luke:. And why is that? Is it because the kids react in a certain way to seeing a starfish?
[00:19:23] Zandile: It's because they trusted enough! They trusted enough to look for just a second, despite the fear that is in their body. There's this wild fear and yes, they can breathe and yes, this and yes, that, but the fear is always greater.
[00:19:41] Zandile: The minute they can see anything under there. I know that we've hit gold. And after that, there's a fish and there's this and there's that. And I'm just like in puddles of tears.
[00:19:53] Luke: You say that there's a lack of diversity, being very specific about it, are you just saying that there aren't enough black people swimming in the ocean in South Africa?
[00:20:01] Zandile: Yeah, there's completely a disconnect to the ocean space, especially in the black community. You know, the ocean space is looked as a white people place. You know, I get asked a lot, why do you do white people things? Like what is wrong with you? I'm like, the ocean is not white people things, it is everybody things. But again, it takes changing a narrative, you know, and changing the culture of how we've always interfaced with these waters.
[00:20:27] Zandile: And I think it also just takes that needed representation. Some of the people on my Instagram say I've been waiting for you to die. You haven't died. So I’m going diving. It’s wild!
[00:20:36] Luke: That’s a charming endorsement that they're giving you right there. So, I mean, why is there a lack of diversity?
[00:20:47] Luke: Is this a… I would have thought that, you know, over the years and centuries of black people in Africa, I mean, it's the birthplace of life, you know, that people would have a connection to the ocean. Why has that been lost?
[00:21:02] Zandile: I think it's a mixture of things. I think it's three things specifically. I think it's the stories that we grow up with, from when I was a little girl.
[00:21:09] Zandile: You're told to not play around deep waters. We're told of these stories about the snake that lives in the water and waves when they crash. It's these white waters and there's a snake under there. And if you don't make it out, you know, the depths of these oceans, they are a sacred space where our ancestors live, you know.
[00:21:27] Zandile: And so, there is a fear and there is a reverence… part one. Part Two, we know that South Africa has a horrible history of apartheid that saw people be dispossessed of their ocean-facing lands. And so, even if there was an ocean culture, that went away when people got removed from safe ocean spaces. And so, all of a sudden, when there's a mass amount of drownings from riptides and rip currents, it changes how we interface with the water again.
[00:21:54] Zandile: And so I think we need to heal and then we need to bridge and then we need to connect because the space with the ocean is not linear. And so there's a need to be able to hold.
[00:22:08] Luke: I think it's extremely important that people have a connection to the ocean no matter where they're from because we are, you know, integrally connected to it, whether we like it or not.
[00:22:17] Luke: But how do you think it could change people's perception in having that relationship with the ocean?
[00:22:24] Zandile: I feel like, do you know what's the one thing that gets me every single time when I go into the sea? It's the mental health aspect of it. It is the one place where you are perfect, just as you are. And I feel like everybody needs to experience that at least once in their lives, it's the one place that you can go and you don't have to be anything.
[00:22:43] Zandile: And you're perfect just as you are. So, for me, it is the exploration of worlds that you never thought were possible. I grew up in Soweto, a place that was more brown than green. And then you introduce this blue world that is filled with life that you've never seen or thought was ever possible before. So it expands everything that you ever thought was possible.
[00:23:04] Zandile: It expands your world. But do you know what happens in that expansion ultimately? When you connect with the ocean and it's a place that you feel like is home for you, you will protect it. And I think that's the ultimate message that when we connect with the ocean and we find home in the ocean.
[00:23:23] Zandile: We will not allow for harm to befall her. So whether we're looking at plastic, whether we're looking at pollution, whether we're looking at the agreements that are made to dig up the ocean floors for oil, all of a sudden people care and they care differently and they want to protect her and all the life that lives within her, that connection is the ultimate currency.
[00:23:45] Zandile: That changes how we move forward with what we do with our seas, how we protect our seas. And to have everybody on board, it's all hands on deck. It's needed.
[00:23:55] Luke: So what is your role in changing this perception that… you're obviously taking kids out, you know, swimming and learning how to snorkel and free dive.
[00:24:05] Luke: What are you doing in other ways to help promote the ocean?
[00:24:09] Zandile: So thank you so much for this question. I love it. I thought, you know, I'm free diving, I'm creating this representation that I think is so desperately needed, I do speaking work but also I've moved into film. And so, you know, in the show, you'll see me with a camera in hand.
[00:24:27] Zandile: And so for me, it's ultimately the continuous space of saying, how do we tell beautiful stories that allow people to… yes, there can be fear. But stories that allow people to feel invited to the party, to be curious enough to peek in and to not run away. So, for me, I think that's it, it's just continuously creating that representation, telling stories that allow people to peek in, in curious interest and speaking and just reaching out to the youth and reminding them that they are the future of tomorrow, they get to protect our seniors.
[00:25:02] Luke: So, when I watched the show, which was Shark Women: Ghosted by Great Whites, it was kind of a standout for Shark Week for me in that, you know, number one, it was all women, which I thought was amazing. But number two, it was just, it was great storytelling and good science.
[00:25:15] Luke: I'm like, hey, this is a really good shark show. And your role in it was particularly fascinating. So I knew we had to have you on board. So how did you get involved in this project?
[00:25:23] Zandile: So I've been diving for over six years and I had never seen a great white shark in my life. And for the amount of times that I dive as a person.
[00:25:33] Zandile: It's just, it's not possible. And so I had this big fear that I would never ever see a great white shark in my life. And it scared me because, at a point, the world came to us to come and look for great white sharks. And so when there was the moment when everyone said the sharks had disappeared, I wondered if that was it.
[00:25:49] Zandile: And so when Ali was looking for her six white sharks and she said Zans, I'd love for you to be a part of my team. So excited, but I was also so afraid, you know, you don't know what you're gonna find out there. The sea's not a zoo, you know, are we gonna go in the search and find nothing? And it was just such an incredible opportunity.
[00:26:10] Zandile: And of course, as you know, we did find a few white sharks and my first encounter, which was absolutely incredible.
[00:26:17] Luke: Yeah. The first time you saw a great white, I believe, was on the show and the reaction was palpable. I mean, the smile on your face was incredible. I think you shed a couple of tears there as well.
[00:26:27] Luke: Walk me through that emotion of seeing a great white for the first time.
[00:26:33] Zandile: I still have no words for it. I mean, it's early in the morning. We've got a decoy in the water and we have this full breach… like this massive white shark breaks the surface of the water out into the air. And I'm just thinking, wait, what?
[00:26:49] Zandile: And, it was insane. I cannot tell you, like, I just, I looked over at Ali because she knows how deeply I've wanted this moment. And I just started crying. It was insane. Like, as I'm retelling it in this moment, I can just feel the tears again. And I think that's what makes the show so incredible for me. That it gifted me a dream that I've had for so many years.
[00:27:17] Zandile: In all the ways you could imagine and more.
[00:27:21] Luke: Yeah. And you were there with two other amazing women, Leigh de Necker and Alison Towner. And we spoke to them on another podcast. I know that they're scientists and their background working with sharks. Why would they want you to join the team uniquely?
[00:27:32] Zandile: So I actually thought we were like a powerful three. Right? So there's Ali who has worked with… you know, Ali has worked with great white sharks for as long as time and she's still so young and Leigh and her shark nutrition knowledge. I mean, that was incredible. And for me, I get to free dive. I've got a strong breath hold… Over four minutes. I can dive to over 35 meters.
[00:27:54] Zandile: And we all know that when you are free diving, you are able to get closer to marine life. So when I was down there looking for white shark food, you know, I'm the person to go down there. I'm not loud, I'm not anything, I sneak into the space and I can see what is happening under there.
[00:28:12] Zandile: And I think it gave us a completely new advantage as well in how we enter and interface these waters while we're looking for these white sharks.
[00:28:20] Luke: Yeah, both women were fascinating and I've spoken to Ali a few times and that was the first time with Leigh. And I told her at the time that she had, what I thought was probably one of the coolest job titles ever, you know, a shark nutritionist.
[00:28:34] Luke: Like, we're really taking care of these sharks now. Aren't we? But, explain, you know, what that is. In the job that you were given. So, she was telling you to go find white shark food. What did that actually look like for you?
[00:28:48] Zandile: That looked like catsharks. So pajama sharks, leopard shy sharks and just seeing what else there was under there.
[00:28:54] Zandile: Smooth hound sharks… we looked for everything that would look like a typical white shark diet in addition to the seals, of course. And so that was my work. And what was incredible is, you know… Leigh’s asking the question, is it abundant? She knows all the things that can help me be able to contribute to the team in a more powerful way.
[00:29:16] Zandile: And so, while her and Ali were doing all the science stuff, I could do the stuff that I do best. You know, working on breathhold, seeing what what's under there and giving feedback to the team to see how we move forward.
[00:29:27] Luke: And your conclusions of that particular investigation were that there was plentiful white shark food, right?
[00:29:33] Zandile: There was an abundance of white shark food, let me tell you. So, in our show, there's a point where I have to go out on this mission. So Ali & Lee, they go one way on one mission, and I'll go on another. I'm in the kelp forest by myself. Look, let me tell you, I don't get scared often. I had a moment. Okay. Like, as I was seeing these little sharks around me, I thought this is somebody's food.
[00:29:58] Zandile: And I'm in this water, it was crazy. It was crazy, but it was beautiful to see an abundance of life that would contribute to a white shark's nutrition.
[00:30:09] Luke: Yeah. If you ever want to experience entering an alien ecosystem where you've literally just become part of the food chain, you don't know what part you are in at any one time and it can change at the drop of a hat…Try free diving.
[00:30:22] Luke: Yeah, that's a fun thing. So what was the local reaction to the orcas turning up and scaring the great whites away from a, you know, typically very great white place.
[00:30:34] Zandile: It's interesting, right? So us, as divers, we're freaking out! Where are the white sharks? Oh, my word. And I mean, there is a complete freak out. And I mean, in the surfing community, there's the little bit of phew. That's a little bit… you know, we can worry less while we're surfing and it's interesting ‘cause you kind of realize that, yeah, people have different attachments to the sea, depending on what they do when they’re in the sea.
[00:30:59] Zandile: But I definitely think the greater part is a devastation, an absolute devastation. Because more than the fact that we know that these sharks are key species in keeping our oceans healthy but they also do so much for tourism. They do so much for tourism and that's why we've also realized, right.
[00:31:22] Zandile: That all animals and all marine life, they are of even more value to local fishing communities because of the tourism aspect. And so when you see the businesses that have gone down when the sharks disappeared, it feels like it's all connected. When the sharks are gone, the word is devastation.
[00:31:44] Luke: Talk to me about that. ‘Cause I know in Gansbaai, the loss of sharks and, you know, the ability to reliably say to somebody, yes, I can take you out to see a shark. I know that was devastating for, you know, local communities. Do you have a sense of what it was like economically? You know, in town on the ground, like, was it literally businesses closing all over the place?
[00:32:05] Zandile: You know what, here's a perfect example. When I first met Allison, it was, was it 2019 or 20? 2020? Just… no, it was in 2019 before lockdown. It was somewhere around there, but when I got to Gansbaai for the first time, there was life. There were these businesses that were thriving, taking people out to these shark excursions.
[00:32:28] Zandile: It's important. Right? And I've always said this. Shark cage diving is important because it allows the person off the side of the street without needing to know how to swim or to dive. And they get to witness this incredible life and they begin to protect these oceans because of this encounter. But now when you go to Gansbaai, I think there's only one shark business that is open.
[00:32:54] Zandile: If there was six, there's now one, and you can just see that the town is gray. That the town is not the vibey colors that it has been before. And I mean, everybody can tell of, you know, of loss over the last two years. But from a white shark perspective, That is a big dent in the industry.
[00:33:14] Luke: I mean, on your show, you, you know, it was fairly evident that the white sharks are simply moving. You know, there was definitely a few that got killed by orcas but they're being deterred from the area and moving away. Does that mean that Gansbaai kind of goes away as a tourist Mecca? Or do you think that there's a comeback?
[00:33:35] Luke: Like, are you starting to see more white sharks around? Is this perhaps a seasonal thing, a cyclical thing? Like what, what is the general feeling?
[00:33:43] Zandile: Luke, I don't think it's a seasonal thing. I dive a lot. And so we know that there's a problem at sea and we know that the orcas are very clearly creating a big problem for us.
[00:33:55] Zandile: And so I really hope that we find a way around it. I don't know what else to say, you know, but I do know that it is not seasonal. And, you know, Alison’s paper that speaks about the orca attacks, you know, even from when we were filming, the following day when orcas were seen, all the white sharks were gone, this is a big problem.
[00:34:15] Zandile: And so what does it mean to watch mother nature? Do what mother nature does? Oh, I don't know. I don't know.
[00:34:23] Luke: Yeah. It's maddening. Especially when we, as humans, you just, perhaps stupidly, decide that we can, you know, control or harness the powers of the ocean, whether it be to bring in people in a tourism sense or to introduce certain things that we, you know, maybe start to take for granted in the ocean.
[00:34:44] Luke: And then something happens whether natural or not natural, and it can all go away so quickly. It's kind of scary that way.
[00:34:50] Zandile: To watch mother nature is to actually just be humbled. It is to be humbled. By how, you know, for all the human awesomeness that we think we are. I mean, when we look at the ocean today, you know, what are you gonna do?
[00:35:06] Zandile: I don't know but it scares me. It scares me. It scares me to the bone because I feel like everybody needs to have an opportunity at least once. To see a white shark and honestly be awed by the size of those things. Like to be freaked out, to go home and sip a coffee and, like, drink your coffee in silence because you cannot believe what you saw. We need that.
[00:35:34] Luke: I've had the great fortune of taking many people diving with great whites and, for a lot of them, it's their first experience, even with the ocean, you know, and the seasickness that abounds with it. But yeah, that first time that they see a white shark and they're underwater and the sharks looking back at you and then they pop out inevitably, you know, the first timers they'll always pop up outta the cage, be like, whoa, kinda screaming.
[00:35:56] Luke: And you can see that look in their eyes of just pure fascination. And I've always thought of it as just the ultimate sort of online moment. You know, the moment when somebody goes from, you know, thinking the ocean is a cool place to vacation to, wow, this is something completely alien and beautiful.
[00:36:15] Luke: And you can just see the passion that just awakes in them. So if you had your perfect end goal of your work with the Black Mermaid Foundation, we're telling stories with hopefully more shows that we get to see you in, what is the end goal?
[00:36:31] Zandile: The end goal is everybody feeling at home in the ocean.
[00:36:34] Zandile: The end goal is everybody seeing how their lives are so linked to the ocean, that the ocean is not something that is over there. It is something that is within, that is a part of, and that we cannot live without healthy oceans. My end goal is the hope that when people look at the sea, they see themselves. That the protection of her is the protection of humanity.
[00:36:57] Luke: That would be beautiful if we could get that to be a global phenomenon. I'm curious, in South Africa, because we hear so much about sharks and shark attacks and breaches and everything like that, if you've got a local population that have been disenfranchised from the ocean that are perhaps trepid about it, what is their incentive to get into the ocean, to care more about it?
[00:37:22] Luke: And is it really possible given all of the, you know, the shark, perhaps, paranoia? Or are we just seeing the highlights of it and it isn't such a big deal over there?
[00:37:32] Zandile: That’s such an incredible question. The question of what is their incentive? Oh, my word. So I often say we need to reimagine ocean conservation, right?
[00:37:40] Zandile: So in the beginning, ocean conservation first looked like OceanFirst. And I said, you need to get the people to be a part of the solution. You cannot ask people to care for the oceans when they don't know what they're going to eat for dinner. Right? So it is connected when you take care of the people and they know that their lives are sustained by the ocean.
[00:38:00] Zandile: They are incentivized to protect the ocean, right? Because outside of that, there is no incentive really. And I think that's a critical part of it. But for me, I think it's like, when I see with my kids, here’s a typical example. When I bring the kids back after a day of snorkelling to see the parents. When I show them the pictures, I feel like, and again, it's generational, right?
[00:38:26] Zandile: So the parents have lived through a harder time. The kids are living in a freer world. And so, as the kids get to explore, the parents are healed in a different way. And I feel like that's powerful. I don't know how we get it right completely. But I think it's just, I don't know. I feel like kids are a good way to start, you know, kids encourage parents to try things that they would never try.
[00:38:50] Luke: And at the top of this show we were actually talking about something that, you know, people can do. Like, it’s kind of hard to talk about something like orcas that are pushing great white sharks out of an area, ‘cause there's not much we can do about it. But there are things that we can do to help protect the ocean and to, you know, by proxy, protect the sharks.
[00:39:12] Luke: And I know that you are doing a lot of work in it. So talk to me about plastics and the problem in South Africa.
[00:39:17] Zandile: AHHH. AHHH! Plastic, plastic. Dear Lord… Sorry. I don't mean to be blasphemous. But we have a problem, right? We have a world that is so consumed with its own comforts, that it has failed to realize that when mother nature dies, we die.
[00:39:38] Zandile: And so I feel like we've got work to do. And so I'm always speaking up against plastic pollution. I actually bought a guy a coffee earlier on and I said, sorry, I didn't put the cap on because we don't need more plastic in the world. And you're drinking this coffee now. And he looked at me and I was like, you understand?
[00:39:54] Zandile: But the whole idea is… I think that as humanity, we need to consume consciously. We need to be intentional with how we live. And so for me, that work looks like partnering with brands that are looking to create change and advocate, speak on it in every single moment. Be it.
[00:40:11] Luke: Yeah. I'm curious from your perception as somebody who's, you know, living in South Africa and you're probably seeing media coming over from the states and talking about, you know, plastics and environmental concerns. ‘Cause I think there's this perception, at least with Americans, to some respect, that, hey, we're not necessarily the problem. That it's other places in the world who are polluting much worse.
[00:40:37] Luke: And I've heard that from a few people. I'm like, well, we do have a massive population here and we're heavy consumers of single use products and stuff. We're probably actually among the worst offenders here. What is the perception of America from South Africa?
[00:40:52] Zandile: Ooh. That's a feisty question. I don't think, you know, Africans perceive Americans in any bad way! But we also realize that, you know, America is a superpower and there is a large consumption culture as well there. Like I always say, when you look at Africa and when we look at carbon emissions, you know, we're the least contributors to the carbon problem that we find ourselves having.
[00:41:18] Zandile: And when we look at plastic and actual product usage, you know, you kind of have to say, well, our contribution is quite minimal in a way to where we find ourselves. And so, I feel like there's not big pointing our fingers. But I think we all probably globally agree that America being the leading narrative in many and most things… as they do, the world will follow.
[00:41:47] Zandile: And I think that's important as well, that we were continuously saying, and we're continuously looking to partner with brands and spaces in the states because that is a respected, narrative-respected, country. You know, you guys, I mean, we look at you guys for a lot of things, you know, culture often comes, you know, not comes from, but culture is created there.
[00:42:14] Zandile: And I think as America makes the sanctions that allows new ways… that look at new ways for us to protect our oceans, the world will follow. You look at the Seychelles, you know, Seychelles did something that was incredible. They traded their debt for carbon emissions. I mean, come on! So there's new ways in which we can participate and contribute to this discussion.
[00:42:36] Luke: Now, in speaking to, you know, largely America as you are right now. With this platform, what would you say to people or to brands in general? Like, what could be the most help for our oceans and in particular Africa's oceans, even from over here.
[00:42:52] Zandile: I would say, could we consume consciously when we think about our comfort, you know, it's completely linked.
[00:43:02] Zandile: So let's partner, let's collaborate. Let's come up with solutions together. Let us co-create because, ultimately, when people are stakeholders and decisions that that are. That really changes the currency with which it lands. And so I think for me, that's the, that's the currency of the future partnerships, collaboration and co-creation of solutions that save our oceans together.
[00:43:25] Zandile: We don't get to say these are American oceans. These are all our oceans. And, um, and I feel like we've got work to do there. And every single time we reach out to each other and partner in these missions, we really do become
[00:43:37] Luke: strong. Yeah, everyone, you hear that San dearly says, so, so let's all do that.
[00:43:43] Luke: which be, which would be amazing. So steering away from sort of conservation, but perhaps it is still a conservation question. What would you say to people who perhaps are. You know, scared of the ocean, or haven't had that experience that you are able to take kids out to, to see for the first time, you know, someone who's listening to this going, oh, this is cool.
[00:44:02] Luke: You know, these, these experts are getting to the ocean and doing what they're doing. What would you say to them about a potential relationship with the ocean? And how would they get started?
[00:44:11] Zandile: Uh, number one, it is okay to be afraid. Touch your fear. Two. It is never too late. You are never too old. I was 28 years old when I had a snorkel held up to my face to say, you breathe in through this one, like you would with a five year old.
[00:44:26] Zandile: And so embrace the journey of new things. Be afraid. Lean into that fear, because let me tell you every single time you lean into your fears, you open up into a new world of possibilities that you never thought possible. There is gold on the other side of fear. So take your time. It doesn't have to be on anybody's time, but yours, but starts try peek in.
[00:44:54] Zandile: Visit the sea every day. Look at it, touch it. Put your toe in. you get to decide the pace at which you progress, but I think it's important that you try.
[00:45:03] Luke: That's beautiful. And are you guaranteeing that every single one of those person that starts snorkeling today that they'll have a four minute breath hold and 35 meter dive in the next few years?
[00:45:12] Luke: Just like you
[00:45:13] Zandile: 100%. Let me tell you I, I don't think it's necessarily special. All of us have that mammalian. Reflex. All of us do all humans. The minute you submerge your face, your body's like, Hey, I know this place. You just need to give your body a chance to fully feel into the discomfort. And let me tell you from 10 meters to 20 meters, or from one minute to three minutes, and you already feel like a superhuman and you're just like, oh my word, how, how do I not have an S on my chest?
[00:45:45] Zandile: Let me tell.
[00:45:48] Luke: Oh, Zandia, that's beautiful. I, I, I look forward to having those same superpowers myself. so, um, what are you, what are you working on right now? Are you on any other productions coming up?
[00:46:00] Zandile: Um, I'm not on any more shark week productions, but I. I have a film. That's going out into the world, partnered with Glen fit, which is really exciting because it is again, water conservation.
[00:46:12] Zandile: And so I go out into the ocean and I do this phenomenal work and this other human goes up to Iceland. And between the two of us, we come together and there's a product that's going to be auctioned. But again, it is for water security. Here in South Africa. So there's incredible films that are coming out through the year.
[00:46:31] Zandile: Um, and I recently made my first film where I was the director on, and I wrote the story and it's been commissioned by a streaming network. So there's exciting stories to be told. And I'm so excited for everything that is to come and hopefully more white chalk shows with discovery and. Yes. .
[00:46:50] Luke: Yeah, it sounds like some exciting stuff.
[00:46:52] Luke: Um, where can people find you, uh, to find out about, you know, the release of these, you know, shows and streaming and stuff like that?
[00:46:58] Zandile: Zandy the mermaid, Zandy the mermaid. Zandy the mermaid. How, how do you spell Zandy Z a NDI. I, the mermaid that's on Instagram. On Twitter. On Facebook. On LinkedIn. Yeah. That's about.
[00:47:14] Zandile: And then black mermaid dot if you're looking for my website.
[00:47:18] Luke: Oh, that's awesome. Okay. Well, there's we expect big things coming out from you. It sounds like there's a lot going on. And, uh, I, for one would love to see more media coming out from your side. I think you've got a, a unique voice and perspective on everything and it's much, much needed.
[00:47:31] Luke: Thank for the work you're doing.
[00:47:33] Zandile: Thank you so much for that. And thank you for having me. I think it's just like passion to passion. Yeah.
[00:47:42] Luke: Well, we're at the Finn and man, I told you that Zand Delia was gonna be amazing. And wasn't she fascinating to listen to? I, I, I love hearing the joy of the ocean in people's voice. And every time she opens her mouth to say anything, ocean related, I can hear the smile that that woman is amazing. And she does really good work.
[00:48:01] Luke: And I do wanna point you towards a couple ways to help support that. She's super passionate about ocean conservation and. Also diversifying the ocean. And it's not just about having people of different races and different colors in the ocean. It's about giving people a connection to the ocean. That's tangible, that matters to them.
[00:48:21] Luke: And then they know what they can do. And perhaps even what they're doing in their daily lives to help better protect the ocean it's animals. And if you just wanna be selfish about it, it helps protect you at home us because we need the ocean to be a functioning ecosystem in order. You know, better protect us in our environment.
[00:48:40] Luke: We'll move on to that in just a sec, but look, give Zand Delia a follow. Uh, she's also got a podcast that's called the ocean tribe hangout. She's talking about her passion for representation and conservation. She talks to free divers and surfers and Marine biologists and stuff like that. Look, give it a lesson.
[00:48:56] Luke: She's fantastic. Really well spoken. And she, she knows her stuff. Uh, if you are in the area or looking to travel, she also has an ocean hero's bootcamp, which is, is designed for global youth activists. These are people from 11 to 25, it's a free program. Uh, she has online versions and then she also has, uh, her in person versions as well.
[00:49:19] Luke: So she's super passionate about all that. So give her a follow on social media and you can follow along with what she's. Now, one of the things Ando is super passionate about, we spoke about it at the top of the show it's plastic pollution and how it does have just such a massive effect on the ocean. We heard before about how it's contributing to the loss of plankton in the ocean.
[00:49:40] Luke: As a reminder, losing plankton means that we lose a large producer of oxygen and a carbon sink. So in losing the plankton, we're literally wiping out, you know, Amazon rainforests, plural, many, many of them it's, it's probably easier to think about that. The ocean should be good and healthy and green and they're they're blue and pretty and full of plastic, unfortunately.
[00:50:04] Luke: And that's, we need to change that. So just some action steps that you can take personally on a daily basis to help cut down on our influence in the ocean. Cause unfortunately, microplastics aren't going. Plastic will not go away. It'll stay in the ocean for hundreds, if not thousands of millions of years, uh, it breaks down eventually, but only small enough that the small animals eat it.
[00:50:27] Luke: And then it makes its way up the TRO food chain. So it's, if you are eating fish at some level, you're also eating the plastic. So if that doesn't gross you out enough to take action, then I don't know what will, but I certainly don't wanna eat it. It's not good for you. So how about we do just some really easy things, like not using single use plastic.
[00:50:46] Luke: Right. Don't use the single used shopping bags that you get as supermarkets, uh, don't buy big packs of water bottles, carry around a aluminum water bottle with you everywhere. Um, even things like straws make a huge impact. And I was on vacation recently and I saw that all the straws being used were a, a biodegradable seaweed product.
[00:51:06] Luke: And I thought that's really cool. You know, some people are innovating in this space, so support places that do that. If you're at a restaurant. That's using, you know, uh, utensils or biodegradable products or, you know, those weird looking straws, give them props for that. Go talk to the manager and say, Hey, thanks for spending the extra money on this stuff, because they could just cheap out and use plastic.
[00:51:29] Luke: But that's, you know, it costs money to innovate. It costs money to conserve and, and they're making their efforts. So if you can't do anything yourself, give someone else a pat on the back for the work that they're doing make 'em feel appreciated because they, by proxy are protecting your ocean, your air, your planet, your earth, and your kids and your, your future generation is future and climate that they'll be living in.
[00:51:51] Luke: And I will say, as we're wrapping up this podcast, something else definitely to look. Because I recently went through this journey myself. I was trying to find certain, uh, sunscreens in locations where it was kind of hard to find. And every single one of those sunscreens had really bad ingredients in them.
[00:52:06] Luke: As far as their effect on the ocean, we can do simple things by not using certain chemicals, things like oxybenzone, Octa ate, Okta cry and parabens. Now those first three. If you can't remember them, just do a Google search and look for bad chemicals in sunscreen, or look for reef safe sunscreens. And they'll talk about these chemicals as being bad for the environment.
[00:52:32] Luke: We're spraying. 'em on our skin. We're going into the water. They're coming off and they're staying in the environment. And these are all highly, highly, highly toxic. Plankton. So if you can buy the reef safe sunscreens, that will be one thing that you can do to your life. That will mean you'll have less effect on the ocean when you go and visit it.
[00:52:52] Luke: And I'm not even talking about having to visit it. I'm saying if you are up in the mountains and spraying sunscreen on yourself, those chemicals will go into whatever groundwater is available. It'll go into, you know, your shower afterwards. If you're. You know, swimming up in the mountains. Um, but eventually it will make its way to the ocean.
[00:53:12] Luke: One of the things that I think is kind of cool, there are some apps these days, and I'm not promoting any particular one, but there's one that I found called think dirty. If you grab that app and scan a barcode of your shampoo or your cosmetics. It'll tell you what ingredients it has in fairly simple terms.
[00:53:28] Luke: Now they, they probably have some payment thing associated with it, but you can just actually check your products and see if it has any of those microplastics that are, that are hurting the environment or any of these, uh, parabens, uh, that we really should not be putting into the waste water.
[00:53:45] Luke: Okay, well, that's all for today's episode. Stay tuned to this feed. As we continue to cover the Sharkies current topics, talk to top scientists and experts and learn about the latest conservation efforts to keep this amazing animal and our oceans from extinction. Thanks for listening to shark week the podcast.
[00:54:02] Luke: Be sure to rate us five stars and subscribe for more shark fun. Until next time I'm Luke tipple and I'll chat to you soon.